DP Flex
 

Always thought I had DP/Flex down pat, so I can't tell if this is a dumb question or not...

Starting lineup, DP is in the field (along with the 8 other starters)... Flex in the 10th spot is not listed in any position.

Should I accept this as a legal lineup?


This might be an even dumber part...
If it is legal, and accepted, when Flex does come in is it considered a re-entry (because just being listed is considered an entry)?

It's not legal, so unless this is a trick question, I'll say no. The coach can start it the other way and immediately make the change which is likely what the goal was here.
For example: Start with the Flex playing left field and immediately have the DP replace the flex. This gives you effectively a 9 person line-up. Now late in the game when you go to make switches you can first go back up to 10. But in this scenario the Flex burns her initial eligibility at the plate meeting and has to use her re-entry to bring it up to 10.

Now you're making it more complicated. It's not legal, so the question doesn't quite work. But the related question, what if the umpire fouled up and accepted it anyway. I've never given it that much thought and if I was on the field now helping a confused PU, I think I'd say, we're going to treat it as if we had started with it right and made an immediate substitution. So yes, burn the flex's re-entry here but allow the coach to use the DP/Flex. I have no idea if that's right though.

Related scenario: What if the PU accepts a lineup with 11 (including a legally listed flex) or 10 (with no flex) by mistake. What do you do when that comes up and does it matter if it comes up while the extra player is at bat?

What was discussed about the use of DP/Flex at the plate meeting?

Didn't really happen, just a hypothetical sit that just occurred to me...

Let's say, the coach wanted the options of a DP/Flex available. Coach knows this must happen at the start of the game, but she didn't need the Flex's talents just yet.

From youngump's response, it seems the required procedure would be to list Flex in a defense spot, then immediately burn a DP-to-Flex sub at the pregame.

Thanks guys.

Actually, assuming it was not discussed at the plate meeting, my suggestion would be to treat it as a standard starting 9.

DP/Flex was not used at the beginning of the game, so proceed with a starting 9 plus subs. IOW, do not allow the team to go to 10 players, since they were never at 10 players to begin with.

The rules define the FLEX as being able to play any defensive position and also state that all players must have a defensive position listed on the lineup. Since the DP is not a defensive player, s/he is simply noted on the lineup as DP.

Therefore, the FLEX must have a defensive position listed in order for the lineup to be accepted by the PU. This should be addressed at the pregame...."Coach, what position is your FLEX playing?" Note it on the card, then if they want to make a change after the lineups are accepted, you note that as well.

And make it simple in this case, flex has to play defense or she has left the game.

Andy is 100% correct, All positions must be listed.

At my plate conference I first note if the DP Flex is being used. Both DP and Flex must be noted in the positions portion of lineup.

I then look for the Pitcher and Catcher announcing each by jersey number.

I then make sure all 9 Defensive positions are accounted for including where the Flex is starting at on Defense.

I then check how many subs and that their is no duplicate Jersey numbers.

I then have each coach double check their lineup cards when they return them to me I say they are official.

I then ask them if they would like to make any changes at this time

All of this takes about a minute for each team and makes sure that nothing is missed.

Yes, of course, but the OP situation was "what if...". How to conduct the plate meeting to avoid it is a MUCH more boring topic! :D

I don't see the need for:
"make sure all 9 Defensive positions are accounted for including where the Flex is starting at on Defense"

"where the Flex is starting " only if P or C.



I don't see the need for:
"ask them if they would like to make any changes at this time
"

Andy there is no need to list the position with the flex except pitcher and catcher, and your doing this for line up card management for courtesy runners not the flex. The flex can play any of the nine or she's on the bench. That's all I need to know. I don't even understand why you would need it for line up management. :D

Ron

Because ASA 4-1-a-1 requires the lineup card to list defensive positions as does NFHS 3-1-3 in order to be legal and accepted by the umpire.

The rulebook does require the positions to be listed on the card. This means the OP would be illegal since the Flex does not have a position listed.

What is also clear, based on casebook situations 3.3.2 D, and 3.3.5 A and 3.3.5 B is that the player may be withdrawn from the game (substituted for) and has one re-entry remaining.

In this case a legal substitution because the DP can play defense for the FLEX, which reduces the lineup from 10 players to 9 players, provided the coach has informed you that this substitution was taking place. If they did not report this to you, and you or the opponent noticed the DP playing defense, not the FLEX, and it was not reported we now have an unreported substitution situation and the associated penalties for such a violation.

Trust me when I say not doing so will bite you one day.

DP and FLEX are positions per 4.C.1.a. Once again what does this information provide? What's the theory behind the need for this information?

Insane blue how has it bit you in the as Ass? Please because I don't see it

The Flex has to have a defensive position on the starting lineup. If she does not "start" in a defensive position then the team did not begin the game with the flex/dp option and therefore cannot use it during the rest of the game.

I have "start" in quotes because as others have described above, a team may list the Flex with a positition on the lineup card and then immediately after the lineup is accepted make a change to have the DP play defense for the Flex. The option to use DP/Flex is preserved but the listed starting Flex (who really never played in the game yet) has now left the game for the first time.

If you don't have them completely fill out the line up card, this will certainly bite you because if they slip you a lineup with the top nine players all on defense there IS NO FLEX. But the team thinks there is and will later in the game try to make moves using the DP/Flex and now you have issues.

Required by rule as RKB cited


Not required, but something I do as a courtesy to the coaches in the rare (in my experience) event that there is a change.

Just because required on the lineup or do you mean something more?

Nothing more...all nine defensive players are required to have a defensive position listed on the lineup...I interpret that to mean that all nine defensive positions must be assigned to a player.

I would not accept a lineup that showed two different players listed as F7, for example.

Because rules.

Absorbed by me. :cool:

Yes but the designations DP and FLEX are the positions per 4.C.1.a. And, this is all mute because no one can tell me, except courtesy runner, why you need this information.

Flex is not a defensive position. The rule requires the players to have a defensive position listed on the lineup card when submitted.

4.a states what must be included on a line up including position. 4.b defines the position including the option for a DP FLEX as positions

Your scenario has to do with who is the flex. That has nothing to do with a fielded position and everything to do with the name and number.

One last time, the term flex is not a defensive position. The rules require each player on the lineup card to have a defensive position listed, EXCEPT the dp who is simply designated as such.

And for further proof, August 2014 ASA Plays and Clarifications.

Line-Up Cards
There seem to be a lot of contention/confusion and questions about listing the defensive positions on the line-up card. Specifically the issue of the Flex having a defensive position listed on the line-up card given to the Plate Umpire at the home plate conference. By ASA/USA Softball rules, Rule 4, Section 1A[1]…..The line-up shall contain the first and last name, defensive position and uniform number of each player…..
This question comes up mostly in the game of Fast Pitch when a team is using the DP/ Flex option. In this case the only player without a defensive position listed would be the DP. The Flex must have a defensive position listed. If the Flex does not have a defensive position listed then the umpire should return the line-up card to the coach and have them list a defensive position.

Stand corrected.