Illeal Pitch

[agr8zebra]

So you have the Illegal pitch while she is on the rubber. Do you call the IP and signal? Thus giving her and opportunity to step off the rubber so you can enforce the ball and advanced. Or do you enforce immediately?

My thinking by enforcing it immediately you take away one of the options of the offense to o tske the result of the play/pitch? Am I wrong in mt thinking?

THOUGHTS

[RKBUmp]

You always call and signal the IP when it happens, it is a delayed dead ball. If it becomes obvious the pitcher is not going to deliver the ball, then yes, you stop play and award the penalty. But, you should delay for a moment to see what the pitcher is going to do before you call dead ball.

[Tru_in_Blu]

And you should not refer to the pitcher's plate as a rubber.

[Manny A]

What rule set are you going with?

In NFHS play, rule 5-1-1p says the ball is dead immediately when there's an illegal pitch violation with no pitch thrown. In NCAA play, rule 10.8 was changed this year to include the Effect that if there's an illegal pitch but the pitch is not released, it's a dead ball. So in those two rule sets, you don't have to signal DDB and wait if, for example, the pitcher steps on the plate with her hands together.

Not sure if ASA is the same.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by Manny A

What rule set are you going with?

In NFHS play, rule 5-1-1p says the ball is dead immediately when there's an illegal pitch violation with no pitch thrown. In NCAA play, rule 10.8 was changed this year to include the Effect that if there's an illegal pitch but the pitch is not released, it's a dead ball. So in those two rule sets, you don't have to signal DDB and wait if, for example, the pitcher steps on the plate with her hands together.

Not sure if ASA is the same.

If I'm reading the italicized correctly, are you saying that once the pitcher steps on to the plate with her hands together, you immediately call a dead ball and enforce the illegal pitch? I hope not, because that would be incorrect.

The interpretation of "no pitch thrown" is that the pitcher stops her motion or holds the ball when she hears the illegal pitch call or sees an umpire give the delayed dead ball signal. You always need to allow the pitcher to pitch, since the offense could have an option if the ball is put in play. The result of the play could be more advantageous to the offense if the ball is pitched.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Andy

If I'm reading the italicized correctly, are you saying that once the pitcher steps on to the plate with her hands together, you immediately call a dead ball and enforce the illegal pitch? I hope not, because that would be incorrect.

The interpretation of "no pitch thrown" is that the pitcher stops her motion or holds the ball when she hears the illegal pitch call or sees an umpire give the delayed dead ball signal. You always need to allow the pitcher to pitch, since the offense could have an option if the ball is put in play. The result of the play could be more advantageous to the offense if the ball is pitched.

Do you have an authoritative interpretation that says that? I thought that the DDB and allowing play to continue happens when the pitcher commits an illegal pitch while pitching (e.g., she leaps, she slingshots, etc.)

So, you wait and wait and wait until the ball is pitched? I don't read that in NFHS rule 5.1.1p. This is under the "immediate dead ball" rule, and that doesn't sound like "immediate" to me.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Manny A

DThis is under the "immediate dead ball" rule, and that doesn't sound like "immediate" to me.

That means it is illegal immediately, not that it is Immediately DB.
The NFHS penalties and ASA effects cover that.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

That means it is illegal immediately, not that it is Immediately DB.
The NFHS penalties and ASA effects cover that.

Not trying to be hard-headed, but NFHS Rule 5-1-1 starts out by saying, "Ball becomes dead immediately when..."

And then 5-1-1p says, "an illegal pitch occurs, but no pitch is delivered to the batter." So waiting God only knows how long between the illegal pitch infraction and then the moment the pitcher decides not to deliver the pitch is counter-intuitive to the rule stating it's an immediate dead ball.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Not trying to be hard-headed, but NFHS Rule 5-1-1 starts out by saying, "Ball becomes dead immediately when..."

And then 5-1-1p says, "an illegal pitch occurs, but no pitch is delivered to the batter." So waiting God only knows how long between the illegal pitch infraction and then the moment the pitcher decides not to deliver the pitch is counter-intuitive to the rule stating it's an immediate dead ball.

Judgment on whether it is or will be thrown, the last $2 of your fee.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Not trying to be hard-headed, but NFHS Rule 5-1-1 starts out by saying, "Ball becomes dead immediately when..."

And then 5-1-1p says, "an illegal pitch occurs, but no pitch is delivered to the batter." So waiting God only knows how long between the illegal pitch infraction and then the moment the pitcher decides not to deliver the pitch is counter-intuitive to the rule stating it's an immediate dead ball.

And 5-1-2 starts out by saying, "It is a delayed dead ball when ....."

And then 5-1-2a says "an illegal pitch is delivered".

So who decides if a pitch will be delivered? I would think that would be the pitcher, not the umpire. If she doesn't choose to deliver a pitch, she can do what pitchers do to stop the pitching sequence; step off. But if her hands are together and she stays on the pitching plate, I submit that we wait until she either pitches or disengages.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

So who decides if a pitch will be delivered? I would think that would be the pitcher, not the umpire. If she doesn't choose to deliver a pitch, she can do what pitchers do to stop the pitching sequence; step off. But if her hands are together and she stays on the pitching plate, I submit that we wait until she either pitches or disengages.

Within the allowed time limit?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Within the allowed time limit?

Yes; but, considering that the only reason to allow her to continue is to allow added benefit to the offended party (offense), I wouldn't be overly quick to call the timing violation (20 seconds) or second form of illegal pitch (more than 10 seconds with hands together) on top of the initial illegal pitch to kill it. But I would wait that long if the pitcher stayed on the plate with hands together.

[IRISHMAFIA]

2013 Case Play 6.1-3
May F1 take the pitching position with the hands already together?
RULING: No, this is illegal. F1's hands must be apart when stepping onto the pitcher's place and while taking the signal. An illegal pitch should be called as soon as the violation occurs. (6-1A)

To me, and the discussions I've had in the past with others, the violation should be called and applied immediately.

Personally, I'm not a fan of this rule as long as they separate THAN simulate taking the signal prior to bringing them back together. I've seen this called when a pitcher is simply stepping onto the PP with the hands together and immediately drop their arms to the side when looking up to take the signal. But it is what it is.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

That means it is illegal immediately, not that it is Immediately DB.
The NFHS penalties and ASA effects cover that.

I still think so.