Warm up area
 

NFHS Fast pitch Can a team's warm-up area legally be behind the bleachers out of the umpire's view. Rule number please if there is one.

Working on the test?

:-)

See 2-15

Rule 2-15 doesn't say (as I read it) where a warm-up area can or cannot be. It does says that if it is "adjacent" and "within the view," then it is within the Confines of the Field. Being within the Confines allows the umpires to have jurisdiction (Rule 10-1-2), and instruct, for example, a catcher to wear a catcher's mask while warming up her pitcher.

SECTION 15 CONFINES OF THE FIELD
The confines of the field includes the field of play, the designated dugout/bench area, and any enclosed or clearly marked area designated as a warm-up area that is adjacent to the field and within the view of the umpire(s).

Which does not answer the deliberately uncovered question. Same as last year's test, I believe. :rolleyes:

This is a good example of a bad test question. The question is asking about the legality/illegality of an area. The confines of the field are defined, but there is no legal/illegal interpretation available.

The test writers probably wanted to ask if it was legal for players to use such a warm-up area. I was not able to find a rule requiring all players and team personnel to remain within the confines of the field for the entire game. If such a rule exists (and I wouldn't mind a citation if it does), is running to the bathroom illegal too?

I would go with 3-6-6, it does not state confines of the field, since that includes the field of play and anyone that is not a batter, runner(s), on-deck batter, coach bat/ball shagger or playing defense is allowed on the field of play.
ART. 6 . . . Only the batter, runner(s), on-deck batter, coaches in the coach's box, bat/ball shaggers or one of the nine players on defense (S.P. 10) are permitted to be outside the designated dugout/bench or designated warm-up areas. (3-5-7)

NOTE: Bench personnel are permitted to engage in throwing and running activities during the one minute designated for the pitcher to throw her five warm-up pitches at the beginning of each half inning.

Casebook even has a couple plays on it:

3.6.6 SITUATION A:

Team A has one of its players or team personnel in the bleachers behind home plate or in the bleachers along the third-base line.

RULING: All members, attendants and bench personnel shall remain in the dugout (bench) or designated warm-up area if not a batter, runner, on-deck batter, in a coach's box, or a player on defense. The umpire shall issue a team warning to the coach involved and the next offender on that team shall be restricted to the dugout/bench area. Failure to comply shall result in the game being forfeited.



3.6.6 SITUATION B:

During a game, the visiting team's bench personnel are (a) sitting on the front edge of the dugout with their feet in live-ball territory or (b) standing or sitting outside the dugout or marked bench area.

RULING: In (a) and (b), the umpire shall issue a warning to the coach with any subsequent offender being restricted to the bench/dugout for the remainder of the game.

These rules are completely outdated. No one would ever prohibit a pitcher and catcher strolling a little away in order to warm up. But you wouldn't allow four "on-deck" batters, as they like to call themselves, swinging away behind the stands. They need to get some post 2000 AD language in the books.

This question threw me for a loop also... I defaulted to "if the book doesn't say it's illegal, that means it's legal".

You'll find your answer in NFHS Case Play 1.7.3 Situation B:

"While the game is in progress, the umpire notices that a non-adult is warming up the pitcher, but is not wearing an approved helmet and mask combination and throat protector (a) within the confines of the field, or (b) outside the confines of the field.

"RULING: In (a), the umpire shall warn the pitcher's head coach of the infraction and prohibit the pitcher from warming up with that individual until the non-adult secures the proper equipment. The next player not properly equipped will result in the player and the head coach being restricted to the dugout/bench for the duration of the game. In (b), rules prohibit team personnel from being outside the confines of the playing area or designated warm-up areas during a contest. The umpire shall warn the head coach of this infraction. The next offender is restricted to the dugout/bench for the duration of the game. The umpire's jurisdiction is restricted to the confines of the field and designated warm-up areas. (3-5-1; 3-6-1; 3-6-6)"

So a team cannot have a designated warm up area outside the confines of the field.

Certainly pertinent, but they still don't answer the question of where the "designated warm up area" can be.

Well, I read the case play as saying that players cannot be outside the confines of the field, so the designated warm-up areas must be within the confines of the field.

There has to be some semblance of control of the players by the coaches. They are ultimately responsible for them, and they cannot maintain control if their players are away somewhere where they cannot see them. That's why the rules require the players to stay within the confines of the field, as the case play answer (b) states. If they must stay within those confines at all times, then it's counter-intuitive to have a designated warm-up area that is outside of those confines.

I cannot believe that NFHS would allow players to warm up somewhere where they cannot be supervised. Imagine a bullpen that is behind a copse of trees beyond the parking lot, where nobody can see a pitcher and catcher warming up unless he/she crosses the lot and walks on a path through the trees. Who's going to check to make sure that catcher has her helmet/mask on when she's in a crouch? Do you think NFHS would say that's okay? No way I would consider that a legal "designated warm-up area".

[Edited to add:] If it is okay for a designated warm-up area to be outside the confines of the field, then I would expect the answer to (b) in the case play to say something like, "If the players are in a designated warm-up area that is outside the confines of the field, the umpires have no jurisdiction to enforce the helmet/mask requirement for the catcher, but should inform the coach that the catcher is not wearing the proper equipment," which is similar to the ruling in case play 10.1.2 Situation A. Since there is nothing in the answer that even suggests that a designated warm-up area can be outside the confines, it's pretty clear to me NFHS's position once the game begins. I don't need something definitively written in the rule book to tell me that the warm-up area has to be within the confines of the field. From a safety and well-being of the players point of view, it must be somewhere where the coaches and umpires can see them.

It says OR, meaning the warm-up area might not be in the confines of the field.

How is this any different from a field where warm-up ares are hidden under the stands?

That isn't what it states.

Simple. Wherever they designate it to be. So many fields, so many different designated areas.

Rule 1, Section 7, Art. 3...(FP) Any non-adult warming up a pitcher at any location within the confines of the field shall wear an approved catcher's helmet and mask combination and throat protector.

Note that it does not say anything about whether the catcher is standing or squatting. If both players are throwing overhand, the mask is not required. You may not find it anywhere in any book, but a softball pitcher warming up is throwing underhand.

Regarding "copse". Had to look that one up. I wouldn't have passed that one on the vocabulary test. :(

I don't have the 2016 nfhs rule book but I have seen somewhere there was wording added that specified the catcher was only required to wear an approved helmet when crouched.

I'll get my books Sunday. The 2016 rules and rule changes are on-line. Checking those, there is no mention of crouching, either in front of or behind a copse. (Had to use the new word I learned today! :D )

The only change in NFHS for 2016 is the useless definition of "projected substitute".

The warm up "catcher" has never needed any gear besides the mask/helmet.


The open question and the OP is whether the designated warm up area can be outside the umpires' view. No more, no less.

They had to issue a definition of projected substitution after they initially released a statement saying offensive substitutions could not be made until the player was actually coming to bat.

I swear I saw the wording about crouched position soemwhere but cannot find it on the internet. Wonder if it was another release like the initial projected sub statement that they then had to retract.

Not really. It hasn't been defined for decades and I've never seen it as a problem until just recently when you have people looking for problems that should, and in the past were, handled with simple instruction.

You are correct; it's NFHS Baseball.

Wow, wonder who came up with that gem?

A local school has their bullpen located about 20 yards behind the back stop. they use to have bleachers positioned right behind the backstop where you could not see the bullpen from the field. It was brought up numerous times in the past with some umpires not allowing teams to warm up there As the area behind first has copse's behind it with a gully behind that and third base has school buildings behind it. They use a lot of game balls every year. Last season the school moved the bleachers apart towards each dugout about 10 feet so the bullpen is visible from the field and within the confines of the field.

Talk about OOO, from the top down

If it is not within the confnes of the field (meaning it is not within view of the umpire), isn't this kind of a "if a tree falls in the forest..." kind of question? :confused::)

(But, then, what do we expect from NFHS test question writers?)

Or, maybe "if a tree falls in a copse ..."

BTW, since the definition of "copse" is "a small group of trees", isn't a "copse of trees", then, "a small group of trees of trees"? :D

When reading threads like this, I can't help but think of a bit George Carlin did about him and his friends at Catholic school (when Catholic school was Catholic School), and they would make up very complicated questions for the priests or brothers such as, "a sailor is at sea, and he hasn't done his Easter Duty yet, and its Easter Sunday.....but then they cross the International Date Line - would he have committed a mortal sin??" ;)

Having no practical experience with either NFHS or NCAA, I get reminded of that hearing about some of their rules and/or test questions.....

Okay, so maybe I am looking for something that isn't there. That's how I interpret case play 1.7.3.B. I can't imagine that NFHS would approve of a designated warm-up area being outside the confines of the field such that there is no adult supervision possible.

It can be anywhere in the county and always have adult supervision. Even though it sometimes seems to be so, the umpire is not the only adult on site. The issue is that NFHS (an admin and coach driven organization) is dumping the coach's and AD's responsibilities on the umpires and that is not why the umpire is there.