As an official of BB & FB. I stumbled onto this site and seen this forum on softball. I am looking for advice on this matter. In the off season I coach my daughters LL fast pitch team. She has been taught how to pitch by a college coach. She is 11 yrs old but has the mechanics of someone older due to her training from her coach. She has the ability to hit her spots on a regular basis. What I am needing to know is this. In college ball, correct me if I am wrong. Umps will give a ball and a 1/2 off the plate for a strike. So in turn she has been taught to consistantly pitch off the plate. When we went to state tour. the umps would not give her the corners. So in turn it killed her game. I would like to know what the strike zone is in LL and ASA.

Thanks Archer

In no place will you find verbiage that tells an umpire to give a ball and 1/2 off the plate as a strike. You might find individual umpires who call that way (on purpose, or simply bad mechanics in some cases), but no rule.

The rule says that if any part of the ball crosses over any part of the plate (at the proper height, of course), it's a strike. If the ball curves, it may look off the plate when caught, but the key is that the ball has to, at some point, be over the plate (again - this could be just a whisker of the ball over a sliver of the plate).

Mike is correct in that just a whisker of the ball over a sliver of the plate( say the black part) is a good strike. Any umpire with his head on straight will not require the whole ball to be over the whole plate. Umpires that have postage stamp size strike zones are bad for everyone, the batter, the pitcher, the player, the fielders. Make the darn batters swing. Thats what has killed baseball over the past decade.
Next thing some Umps require the whole ball to be above the knee not just at the knee, and in my case the top of the ball can catch the bottom part of the patela (knee) and thats good enough also.

I guess I used the wrong words. What I meant to say is that I know that by rule a strike is anything that crosses the plate. But, I have a friend that umps NCAA Division 1 ball and he told me that in their meeting they would allow a ball and a half off the plate if the pitcher could show she could consistantly hit her spots. Just as in Major league BB the strike zone isnt confined to just the corners of the plate. It seems to me that the game would go by a lot quicker if the zone was expanded. I was just wanting to know if there was a concensous on an expanded zone in LL and ASA?

Archer

So he actually said that if the pitcher is consistently bad, it's a strike, as long as the umpire thinks she's consistently bad on purpose? Yuck.

I've never heard anyone official proposing expanding or contracting the strike zone as written.

I'm actually more inclined to call a wider zone at LOWER levels, not higher levels, especially after the 1st inning and I know neither pitcher can pitch.

I think you misunderstood me. If a pitcher can consistantly hit a spot 4" off the plate say belt high he will give her a strike. Just as Tom Glavine is given a stike 5" off the plate he is given a strike also. Just for the fact that he is in command of his pitches.

The strike zone is defined in the rule books for the various governing bodies of softball and baseball. As a practical matter, you will find that the zone may be a bit different from umpire to umpire. Some umpires may give "a ball and a half off the plate", some may not. I can't speak for college umpires because I don't do college ball.

You said your daughter has been taught to pitch off the plate and she can hit her spots. Well if the umpire behind the plate judges her spot to be a ball, it's a ball.

Teach your daughter to probe the limits of the umpire's zone early in the game. Throw a pitch well outside and bring each pitch after that in a little until a strike is called. That will be "the corner" for that particular umpire.

IMHO, continuing to throw pitches to spots that the umpire consistantly calls a ball is like beating your head against a wall.

You may also find that umpires who give the outside will not give the pitcher the inside pitch including the ones that do catch the corner.

archer, just as in BB, each ump will see the zone differently. If the PU is not calling the outside as your pitcher thinks s/he should, move inside, or lower, or higher. The zone is there, she just has to find it.

Archer,
No, not a ball and a half off the plate. But, half a ball off the plate, that is where the catcher setup, yes. That's not rewarding a consistently bad pitcher, that is rewarding a consistently accurate pitcher. Is it "by the book"? No, but it is the way it's done.

Steve M

I read a post from another board about a year ago that defined a umpire's zone. I'd never really thought about it, but it is pretty much this way.

He/She (I don't remember ) said :

The plate is 17 inches wide.

The black is 1 in wide. Both sides

The ball is 4 in. in diameter, so a ball on either side is another 8 in.

For a total of 27 inches wide strike zone

And most folks think it's only 17 inces wide.

I agree with the other folks who say the pitcher has to adjust to the umpire. Whatever he calls is what it is for that game. As long as he/she is consistent for both sides, they are carrying out their responsibilities and providing no advantage to either side. The sign of good, experienced players is to poke, probe and stretch until they find the limits to the umpire's game.

Rick

[Edited by TexBlue on Sep 16th, 2003 at 11:10 PM]

The strike zone is whatever the umpire is calling. If your daughter can hit corners she needs to learn what each ump will call and adjust which pitches to throw. It doesn't matter what the rule book calls a strike ,It matters what the umpire judges to be a strike.

I coach also and I agree with the umpires on the page here. By the second inning the pitcher should know if they are going to get the outside corner or not. If they aren't getting it, you have to adjust. The umpire isn't going to change his zone once he/she has established it. If my pitcher was in that situation I would tell her that if she isn't getting the corner then bring it in a little bit, show some consistency and then start sliding it out a little further, once the ump gets used to calling strikes out there, you might be able to get some more a little wider.

Complaining about the zone won't accomplish anything except maybe make it a little smaller. Just accept what is there and adjust.

I also had DD that pitched for years and wa taught by a college / olympic pitch coach. Yes he did teach hitting spots of the plate also but he contends that good pitchers are tring to throw as few called strikes as possible and a lot of off plate pitchs that would appear to the batter to be a strike and get them to swing at and miss or hit the pitch in such a way that it could be handeled by the defense for an out. He never emphasized the need for KO as much as controlling hitters.

I agree 100% witht the last post. My daughter has been taught the exact same thing. What I have noticed is that FP softball is mostly between the batter and the pitcher. If a pitcher has the ability to control her pitches and hit her spots on and off the plate. It seems to me that the ump should reward her with a call. Now Im not talking about pitches way off the plate. But if a ball consistantly can been pitched off the plate the batter better be swinging. Yes a pitcher needs to adjust to the umps zone. What I was looking for was information on ASA and LL strike zones. I am not aware if you guys and gals have clinics like we who officiate the upper levels have. In those clinic we dicuss issues such as in BB, By rule 3 second violation is 3 seconds in the paint. But how often do you see it called? Rarely by veteren officials but often by new officials. Like I mentioned before about the ball and 1/2 zone off the plate that D1 FP ups use. It speeds the game up, It rewards a pitcher who is on her game. Just as I have heard in the past. "You have a bat you better be swinging!"

You had to mention Clinics. What a sore spot with me. I am an ASA ump, with many years of USSSA & baseball experience as well. In the Baltimore area and each little group from all over (might be 20) has their own little pre-season meetings. Mostly to collect our money and discuss rule changes. NEVER do the local groups put up a real good clinic. Expecially I feel bad for the new guys. Once upon a time they did have meetings once per week for 5 weeks and thoroughly cover the rule book, mechanics, play situations, interpretations, tip etc.. but not anymore. If I go out of my area (say Washington DC) then they have these HUGE 300 umpire clinics, which I feel gets a bit too big. I bet we all have this problem around the country.

A few random thoughts...

o For the work-a-day JO umpire, discussing the nuances of the zone and rewarding the pitcher for consistently hitting the corners at 10U is, well if not silly, at least far-fetched.

o At 10U, I call a wide zone, but it has absolutely nothing to do with rewarding the pitcher for her control, if you get my drift.

o 1.5 balls off the plate is a considerably wider zone in softball than in baseball.

o If you actually do have a 10U pitcher who has good enough control and ball movement to actually be concerned with finding the corners that the umpire is giving, you don't have to worry about the zone for her to dominate.

o With outstanding upper level (16 & 18U - I don't do college) pitchers, I will reward them for outstanding control and placement by concentrating on tracking the pitch and calling a strike a strike. If her control is that good, she doesn't need any ball and a half help. Just calling the zone as accurately as possible gives her a 27 inch wide zone, as Rick already noted. That's wide enough.

o MLB is trying to crack down on the reputation call, although some believe it has more to do with controlling the umpires than anything else.

It might seem far fetched in your area, but here in VA. FP softball is taken serious. She doesnt play 10U she is playing 14U. So maybe she is ahead of the game. In LL when she throws a change-up and I have seen this on numerous occasions, the ump will hesitate in calling the pitch. 9 times out of 10 they call it a ball. Its like they are confused. Maybe it is the fact they are not used to seeing a pitcher who throws something other than right down the middle. I have no idea. From what I have seen written here and what college games I have watched. Its seems there is a vast difference in plate coverage from LL to the big show.

Not to be a wiseacre, but how many national ASA champions have come from VA? No kidding. JMO, but your pitcher has no business in LL. LL is a rec program, unless you just like beating up on rec teams. I thought you said softball was taken seriously in VA? As well as nearly everything else, including umpire training and player skill.

Excellent post Tom!

I couldnt tell you how many teams from VA. have made if any. She was taught how to pitch a couple of years before she ever stepped foot on a diamond. This is her second year playing FP. As for LL I agree 100%. Its a joke! This is her first year playing ASA and last year was her last year playing LL. From what limited exposure I have had in ASA it is a higher level of ball than LL. In ASA I am just a Dad in the stands. Maybe if you have time you can come to Orlando next month and watch her play.

I'd rather it be January, but, hey, if your payin'.... I'm goin' to Disney World! http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung0...smiley-046.gif

Calm it down a little...
 

Every umpire is not the same. Each has his own ability and understanding of "the zone." It's possible that an individual umpire's ability (apparent consistency) may change within a single game. Much of the appearance of consistency is truly dependent upon the ability of the pitcher. If the pitcher can consistently place the ball where it needs to be placed for either called strikes or to get the batter swinging, the umpire's job is much simpler. It is when a pitcher cannot find the plate/catcher/zone etc. that the umpire's job is difficult because he is searching for a reason to call a strike. "PLEASE, GIVE ME A STRIKE."

Understand Dad, umpires want to call strikes. Balls are monotonous and boring. We want to call strikes and have batters swinging.

As pointed out earlier (by Dakota, Tom) if your daughter has the ability to precisely locate her pitches she is going to dominate... unless SHE CHOOSES TO PRECISELY LOCATE THEM OUTSIDE THE UMPIRE'S STRIKE ZONE. "Ball, ball, ball, ball, Please give me a strike, ball, ball, ball, ball. Please... a strike? Please?

As someone else pointed out, a pitcher cannot start outside the zone and expect to get strike calls. She must start with pitches in the zone and then, not challenge the umpire to make calls outside the zone, but entice the batter to swing at those outside pitches. Now the umpire can reasonably expand his zone... if that's the way he works - call the pitches strikes, at which the batter's are swinging. But understand Dad, as several have pointed out, the umpire is never obligated to call a strike for a pitch that is delivered outside the zone. Most of us here try not to do that. We are, however, obligated to see that the batter has opportunity to hit the ball (that it is in the zone).

The umpire does not conform to the pitcher. The pitcher must conform to the umpire's strike zone. Anything else would be unfair.

A humorous story... and I don't remember the names.

McGillicudy, a powerful, confident batter, known for his excellent batsmanship, comes to the plate. Pitcher and catcher are a more that a little anxious. Catcher calls for a pitch on the inside edge of the plate. McGillicudy stands there calmly. Ball, yells the umpire. Catcher thinks well it might have been a little bit in. Okay, let's try the outside edge of the plate. McGillicudy stands there again. Ball, yells the umpire. Catcher thinks, wow, that looked pretty good. Perhaps it was out. Better call for one down the tube. McGillicudy never even moves a muscle. Ball, yells the umpire. Catcher is flabbergasted now. He asks the umpire "What the heck does it take to get a strike call?!!"

The umpire's response, "McGillicudy will let you know when it is a strike.":D

I find it kind of funny. But in summation, there is one thing that makes a pitch a strike; the umpire must call it a strike (or McGillicudy has got to swing at it). Your daughter must convince the umpire (and the batters) that she is throwing strikes. End of story. :)