Play that happened last night:

Adult Softball - USSSA

1 out, runners on 2nd and 3rd. Batter hits deep fly ball to left field. Left fielder makes incredible catch at the fence. Runner on 3rd tags up, scores easily. Runner on 2nd thought the ball was dropped, so he has already touched 3rd, rounded it, then realized the ball was caught. He goes back to second, without retouching 3rd. He is thrown out going back to 2nd - 3rd out. As of now, the run counts because its a timing play, not a force out, correct? The question is, what if the defense appeals the runner missing 3rd on the return to 2nd? Does the run still count?

That is still a timing play and not a force play. The run would count.

If when rounding third before retreating, the trailing runner passed the preceeding runner, that would have caused the trailing runner to be immediately out with no appeal and with the ball remaining live.

It's not possible to have a force out anytime that, at the time of the pitcher, there is a vacant base between the runner in question and the batter.

ahudgins21,

No force, you had open base between -

forget it....checked answers, Mike already got it.

Welcome to the board http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/bigwave.gif

glen

Besides the vacant base, keep in mind that, unlike in baseball, in ASA softball "whenever the first out of multiple outs is made by the batter, all forces are eliminated." So there can't be any kind of force after a fly out, or after the batter-runner has been put out on the bases.* And there can be no force outs on preceding runners after a following runner has been put out.

*Of course, it might be possible to concoct a crazy situation in which a runner runs the bases in reverse order and creates a force on himself.

"*Of course, it might be possible to concoct a crazy situation in which a runner runs the bases in reverse order and creates a force on himself."

The runner would be out for making a travesty of the game.

Bob

Not necessarily. A runner is out if the umpire believes they are running the bases in the reverse order to make a travesty of the game.

It is possible that a runner could begin retreating after touching a base to which they were forced. For example, bases loaded, one out. B5 hits a long fly to center and all runners go. As he is rounding 2B, R4 sees F8 dive for the ball and, believing it was caught (it wasn't), reverses his path, retouches 2B and heads back toward 1B. Even though R4 legally touched 2B, when the runner reverses his direction, the force is re-established when he passes the base to which he was originally forced.

You're not going to call the runner out for running the bases in the reverse order, but if the defense gets the ball back to 2B while R4 is still between 1B & 2B, he will be declared out on the force.

All codes, both BB & SB, if the batter-runner has been put out, no runners may then be forced out, by definition.

The only execption I can think of would be Pony SB, in which a BR (or any other runner) is declared out for removing her helmet, but by rule any forces in effect at the time of removal of the helmet remain.

Roger Greene

Also in ASA (Rule 3-5E.1 EFFECT).

<b>All codes, both BB & SB, if the batter-runner has been put out, no runners may then be forced out, by definition.</b>

Of course this is true, Roger, for straightforward plays. However, in baseball, outs at missed bases can still be considered force outs after the batter has been put out. In ASA, they cannot.

Example:

Abel on 3B, Baker on 1B, one out. Charles gets a hit down the RF line. Abel scores. Baker goes to 3B but misses 2B. Charles is thrown out at 2B. The defense successfully appeals Baker missing 2B. In OBR, Fed, and NCAA baseball, Baker's out is considered a force play, because he was forced at 2B either at the time he missed the base (Fed, OBR) or at the time the play began (NCAA). (See the BRD for a full explanation.) In ASA, Charles's out at 2B removes the force on Baker. In baseball, Abel's run doesn't count. In ASA, it does.

Similarly, Abel on 3B, Baker on 1B, one out. Charles doubles but misses 1B. Baker misses 2B on the way to 3B. The defense first appeals Charles missing 1B and then appeals Baker missing 2B. In baseball, Abel's run does not count. Regardless of the order of appeals, both outs are force outs (or, technically, the BR before reaching 1B). In ASA, the out on Charles removes the force on Baker, and Abel's run would count.

The "crazy play" I had in mind was something like what Mike described.

[Edited by greymule on Sep 15th, 2003 at 02:49 PM]

Greymule,
I'll have to give you that one. I tend to stop thinking of the batter-runner as a BR after reaching 1st and just consider him a runner. However by definition he/she remains the BR until the play ends.

A thought I can't answer without my books. Would the ASA interp apply in Fed SB in your appeal play?

Roger Greene

Are you sure about "In ASA, Charles's out at 2B removes the force on Baker"?

Roger: I'm not sure how Fed rules on that play. I stopped doing Fed before I learned that rule. However, if I had to bet, I'd guess that Fed SB follows Fed BB and not ASA. I suspect that ASA made their own blanket rule to make things easy.

Cecil: I'm sure. ASA casebook play 5.5.2. The "order of appeals" play is covered in 5.5.14.

Yes.

My books are still in the van and I'm feeling lazy enough that I don't want to go check them. However, I do have the softball rules differences book on the 'puter and this type of play is not listed as differing between Fed & ASA. More and more, Fed is moving closer to ASA's rulings and standards - and they should. In baseball, there is no national governing body. But in softball, ASA is the national governing body. ASA, Fed, and NCAA are moving closer with each year's rulebooks and interps - they have each been sitting on the others' rules committees for at least the past 4 years.

Steve M

Please don't tell MLB or anyone in Williamsport there is no national body for baseball rules. :D

Grey, something confused me about the first scenario you describe, so I want to clarify, with a similar situation.

Baker on 1st, Charlie hits a popup to 2B. Baker is about 2/3 of the way to 2nd (not paying attention, thought ther e were 2 outs ... whatever). Charlie has rounded first as the 2B misses the ball, grabs on the bounce, and tags Charlie.

By your verbiage, it sounds like the force at 2B is still on, but I don't believe it should be. Or is there something different in the interpretations (and is the ruling different by jurisdiction). Is your ruling the same if Baker strays past 2B and then tries to get back to 1B after Charlie is tagged out (and missed 2B in both directions).

mbcrowder: In the situation you describe, the force is off Baker as soon as Charlie is tagged out. That would apply in all codes, baseball or softball. It is plays involving <i>missed bases</i> where the technicalities get a bit hairy.

What would be different is if Baker runs hard on the popup, misses 2B <i>before Charlie is put out,</i> and then runs to 3B. Charlie would naturally be out when he is tagged. If Baker is called out on appeal at 2B, his out would be considered:

(1) A force out in OBR, Fed BB, and NCAA BB; in fact, in NCAA, the out would be considered a force regardless of whether Baker missed 2B before or after the out on Charlie, because Baker was forced when the play began.

(2) Not a force out in ASA (and probably Fed SB); in ASA, whenever a following runner is put out, all forces are off all preceding runners no matter what.

Of course, in the situation you describe, with no issue of whether a run scores or doesn't score, whether the appeal out at 2B is a force or not doesn't really matter. Both Baker and Charlie are out. But add a runner on 3B and assume one out, and whether the out is a force or not obviously does matter.

Speaking ASA

The ASA references for this thread are:

Rule 5.5.A
Case Play 5.5-3
ASA Test #32 - T