Unanchored Goal Posts.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I do not officiate H.S. soccer anymore, but I saw this on CNN.com. I am sure the lawyers will make lots of money in this case.

http://www.kpho.com/sports/17458392/detail.html

MTD, Sr.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I do not officiate H.S. soccer anymore, but I saw this on CNN.com. I am sure the lawyers will make lots of money in this case.

http://www.kpho.com/sports/17458392/detail.html

MTD, Sr.

What does this have to do with HS soccer?

"A fourth-grader at a San Luis elementary school is dead after a soccer goal fell on him and another student early Thursday, San Luis police said."

"The children were playing on the playground at Rio Colorado Elementary School when the goal fell."

"The names of the 10-year-old boys were not released."

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

What does this have to do with HS soccer?

"A fourth-grader at a San Luis elementary school is dead after a soccer goal fell on him and another student early Thursday, San Luis police said."

"The children were playing on the playground at Rio Colorado Elementary School when the goal fell."

"The names of the 10-year-old boys were not released."

NevadaRef:

You asked the same question on the NFHS Soccer Board. It is a reminder that no matter what the age group involved, officials have to do their pregame due diligence.

MTD, Sr.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

NevadaRef:

You asked the same question on the NFHS Soccer Board. It is a reminder that no matter what the age group involved, officials have to do their pregame due diligence.

MTD, Sr.

There is no mention in the article that there was an official game being played or that there were referees present. The fact that this occurred on a Thursday at 7:30 A.M. makes that very unlikely. This was probably an accident that happened because a bunch of kids were messing around on the elementary school playground and possibly climbing on or swinging from a soccer goal.

I see no connection whatsoever with the conduct of referees during a HS event. It would be nice if you would stop implying that HS referees are somehow at fault for the deaths of young children such as this one.

[refnrev]

BUT, it is still a good reminder that we still need to make sure the goals are secure or we are liable for what could be a tragedy like this!

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by refnrev

BUT, it is still a good reminder that we still need to make sure the goals are secure or we are liable for what could be a tragedy like this!

That's exactly the kind of misinformation that made me object to this thread in the first place. I can't stand seeing that kind of garbage spread on the forum.

PLEASE READ WHAT IT SAYS IN THE LOTG!!!!!
LAW 5
...

Decisions of the International F.A. Board
Decision 1

A referee (or where applicable, an assistant referee or fourth official)
is not held liable for:
any kind of injury suffered by a player, official or spectator
any damage to property of any kind
any other loss suffered by any individual, club, company, association
or other body, which is due or which may be due to any decision that
he may take under the terms of the Laws of the Game or in respect of
the normal procedures required to hold, play and control a match.
Such decisions may include:
• a decision that the condition of the field of play or its surrounds or
that the weather conditions are such as to allow or not to allow a
match to take place
• a decision to abandon a match for whatever reason
• a decision as to the suitability of the field equipment and ball used
during a match
• a decision to stop or not to stop a match due to spectator interference
or any problem in spectator areas
• a decision to stop or not to stop play to allow an injured player to
be removed from the field of play for treatment
• a decision to require an injured player to be removed from the field
of play for treatment
• a decision to allow or not to allow a player to wear certain apparel
or equipment
• a decision (where he has the authority) to allow or not to allow
any persons (including team or stadium offi cials, security officers,
photographers or other media representatives) to be present in the
vicinity of the field of play
• any other decision that he may take in accordance with the Laws
of the Game or in conformity with his duties under the terms
of FIFA, confederation, member association or league rules or
regulations under which the match is played

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

There is no mention in the article that there was an official game being played or that there were referees present. The fact that this occurred on a Thursday at 7:30 A.M. makes that very unlikely. This was probably an accident that happened because a bunch of kids were messing around on the elementary school playground and possibly climbing on or swinging from a soccer goal.

I see no connection whatsoever with the conduct of referees during a HS event. It would be nice if you would stop implying that HS referees are somehow at fault for the deaths of young children such as this one.

NevadaRef:

Until now, I didn't pay attention to your nonsense about this article not being germane to H.S. sports. BUT, now I take exception because I NEVER said anything to imply that H.S. referees were at fault in the incident in the news article. As so many people have already stated, I was bringing attention to the fact that we as officials should always be aware of hazardous conditions when we take the field or court in the sports that we officiate.

I am calling your out right now. You owe me an apology for saying something that I did not. If you have any integrity as a sports official you will do the correct thing and issue an apology to me in this thread.

MTD, Sr.

[Nevadaref]

No, Mark, my opinion is well-supported by what you have written in this thread and by the very fact that you created such a thread in the first place.

Here are your quotes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
I do not officiate H.S. soccer anymore, but I saw this on CNN.com. I am sure the lawyers will make lots of money in this case.

MTD, Sr.

In the very first thing that you write you imply that there will be a successful lawsuit over the child's death and by mentioning HS soccer officiating in the sentence immediately prior, you convey the message that the officials, if there even were any, are going to be part of that lawsuit and must somehow be at fault. How else are the lawyers going to "make lots of money?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
It is a reminder that no matter what the age group involved, officials have to do their pregame due diligence.

MTD, Sr.

In this second one, you directly attribute a specific duty to the officials by using the term "due diligence" (definition from the dictionary : the care that a reasonable person exercises under the circumstances to avoid harm to other persons or their property) with the clear implication that if this was not done that they did failed to use reasonable care to avoid this and can now be held accountable for what happened. Of course, you fail to note that per NFHS rule 1-7 "Up until the moment the game begins, it is the responsibility ofthe host institution or game management to judge whether or not the condition of the field, the elements and other conditions affecting the safety of the field of play allow for a safe game to begin," nor do you state that the goals actually don't have to be anchored at all. In fact, per NFHS 1-4-1, they can merely be counterweighted and do not have to be attached to the ground by anything. The goals are not required to be immobile and sturdy enough to do gymnastics upon. They are just supposed to be safe enough to fulfill their role in playing the game of soccer. Furthermore, many sites went away from the permanent goals of which the posts were embedded a couple of feet into the ground because people decried them for posing a safety hazard as they were so unforgiving when a kid crashed into them. This and the proliferation of artificial turf led to the widespread use of portable goals in the past ten to fifteen years.

Lastly, by posting the story on a website about officiating and another one specifically dedicated to HS officiating, your action amounts to nothing more than a sensationalistic attempt to scare HS officials into getting into every little detail because they are worried about getting sued. Your "warning" about the "hazardous conditions" of the field is blown WAY out of proportion. The very article that you posted says "...goals tipping over have killed more than two-dozen people in the last 30 years."

That's UNDER ONE death per year over the last THIRTY years!

By comparison how many players have been killed in car or bus wrecks while travelling to or from a game? How many died from a heart condition while on the field? How many suffered a fatal head injury from a collision with an opponent?

The experts on this matter cited in the article, the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, state that these deaths aren't occurring while people are just playing the game of soccer and the goals are being used for their proper purpose, but rather "people are killed when they climbed on the soccer goal or while attempting to do chin-ups, pulling the goal down."

That's going to be the case with any piece of playground equipment that is misused or treated in a manner for which it was not designed. I'd bet that after the incident in your cited story is fully investigated that that will be found to be the case here as well.

So let's keep this in perspective and quit trying to scare referees with such stories from the media. You are far too experienced an official and of such an age that you should know better than that.

[CecilOne]

Nevada, Although you are correct that this case had nothing to do with HS officiating and that other injury examples include misuse of the goal; that does not alter the point that a falling goal can cause injury. Mark's comment that he does not officiate HS soccer anymore merely identifies his context and does not imply any connection between the example incident and officials, HS or otherwise.
As said before, the only point in this topic is a reminder that unanchored goals are a hazard. I hope that you are not minimizing either the loss of one player per year or the need for officials to observe safety rules. Do you allow games to be played with unanchored goals? I doubt it, as you obviously know the rules and officiating responsibilities.

Mark, I don't think we needed the comment about lawyers even though a tangent to the topic. Please drop the apology and comments about Nevada integrity because it looks like he is just missing the point or consciously making another which the rest of us are missing.

IOW, enough everyone, we have all covered this.

[refnrev]

Nevada,
You say we are not liable. Here's what's going to happen. The first question we will be asked is, "Did you inspect the fields?" followed by, "Were the goals anchored?" And I'm not talking about USSF I'm talking about Fed. If we say no we didn't inpect the field..... why not? If we didn't see that the goals are unachored... why not? If we did and let them play anyway... why in the world did you do that? It doesn't matter what is in print, we are going to be in deep hot water in any of these situations, especially if we let teams play with unachored goals, It's inconceivable to me that any official would let this happen.