AR advantage?

[wardtc]

How would you guys handle this...?

On a counter attack from the other end of the field, the ball goes deep into your corner. You follow it and the players down, the Center is still coming up the field when the defender fouls the attacker (outside the box). The attacker regains control of the ball. Clearly an advantage call.

Do you raise the flag for the foul, or apply advantage. If you apply advantage, how do you signal that?

[ref47]

from your observations of the cr earlier in the match, you decide if the cr would have given advantage, if he had seen the play. if you decide, yes, then you do not raise the flag. that is your only signal that should be made - no signal; continue observing and moving. if you decide the cr would have given the foul, then you raise your flag, look to the cr, wait for whistle, wiggle and point direction.

[Nevadaref]

This is an extra signal that you should discuss with your partners in the pregame. It can be very useful.

Extend your right arm horizontally towards the goal line and continue to run with the play.

I tell my ARs to do this when they observe a foul, which they do not wish to flag because the players may see it and stop. When an AR gives this signal, I holler out, "Play on, advantage!" I also do this when I am the AR for a few centers that I work with frequently, thus we are on the same page.

Many people incorrectly use this to indicate to the Center that a player is onside during a run. This was a mechanic that some of the big boys (Nationals and FIFA refs) were using about a dozen years ago. Currently the top level instructors are teaching NOT to do this. If the player is onside, you just run.

[wardtc]

Thanks Nevada,

This makes sense. If I do nothing (not raise and wiggle the flag) the impression that I send is that if the Center is not close, it's OK to foul.

By signaling that I saw something and having it acknowledged by the Center, reinforces that the players are being watched, and cuts down on the possibility of things getting out of control (esp retalitation if the foul was hard).

P.S. I've seen the arm out on through balls and wondered why that was being done.

[ref2coach]

Most of us do games that do not have excessive crowd noise. I prefer that the AR just say "Advantage or Play On". The players hear, as CR I hope I am getting close enough in my sprint to hear. If I then choose to call the foul I just verbalize "advantage did not develop".

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by ref2coach

Most of us do games that do not have excessive crowd noise. I prefer that the AR just say "Advantage or Play On". The players hear, as CR I hope I am getting close enough in my sprint to hear. If I then choose to call the foul I just verbalize "advantage did not develop".

While it is good to encourage the ARs to use their voices during the match, it can't be recommended for them to verbalize "advantage" or "play on". This does not fit within the Laws of the Game.

Under Law 5 the REFEREE is the only one who is permitted to allow play to continue for advantage.
Under Law 6 the Assistant Referees are to indicate "when offenses have been committed whenever the assistants are closer to the action than the referee..."

Hence what I have recommended above is a method for an AR to clearly indicate to the referee that the AR has observed an offense, but he does so without interfering with play. The referee can either take this advice from the assistant or not.

[ref2coach]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Under Law 6 the Assistant Referees are to indicate "when offenses have been committed whenever the assistants are closer to the action than the referee..."

When the AR is closer, verbilization is indicating the offenses has been committed. As CR I am still reserving the option of calling the foul.

This is an instruction I use only when I know/feel that the AR is of sufficient ability to have also been assigned the CR position in the game in question.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by ref2coach

When the AR is closer, verbilization is indicating the offenses has been committed. As CR I am still reserving the option of calling the foul.

This is an instruction I use only when I know/feel that the AR is of sufficient ability to have also been assigned the CR position in the game in question.

I am just recommending to you that you instruct your AR to use a different verbal indicator to communicate this information to you. ["Knock it off.", "Let go.", "Stop that.", etc.]

While your AR may be a quality official in whom you have confidence and fully capable of being assigned the Center on that game, you must remember that he is in fact NOT the Center on the game, and thus is not authorized to apply the advantage clause.

[ref2coach]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

This is an extra signal that you should discuss with your partners in the pregame. It can be very useful.

Extend your right arm horizontally towards the goal line and continue to run with the play.

I tell my ARs to do this when they observe a foul, which they do not wish to flag because the players may see it and stop. When an AR gives this signal, I holler out, "Play on, advantage!" I also do this when I am the AR for a few centers that I work with frequently, thus we are on the same page.

Nevadaref, Do you not see an in-congruency here? What is the right arm upraised and as the AR continues the run? Is it not half of the "play on signal" The complete signal is for the referee to "extend both arm in an up-sweeping motion and call out Advantage, Play on"

So you are perfectly OK with giving the visual signal for play-on BUT you are taking issue with verbalization as a signal. The upraised right arm everyone in the entire field area can see the AR signaling "Advantage" With AR verbalization, in general, the involved players are the only ones hearing the AR signaling "Advantage".

Neither option is sanctioned as an "approved mechanic" so I can understand a "purist" taking me to task, but not someone who is advocation their own "non-sanctioned" signal.

[AlaRef]

Since the CR is out of position and the AR has seen the foul then the AR should signal the foul. The AR doesn't have the ability to call play on. It doesn't matter if the Attacker regains advantage. The attacker is outside of the box and isn't in position to score. The foul should be called and given the correct restart.

[ref47]

alaref, pls see the guide on fouls not seen by the cr.

lead ar: Determines that the infringement was
not or could not be seen by the referee
and that, per the pregame conference,
the referee would likely have stopped
play for the infringement if it had
been seen

[AlaRef]

Originally Posted by ref47

alaref, pls see the guide on fouls not seen by the cr.

lead ar: Determines that the infringement was
not or could not be seen by the referee
and that, per the pregame conference,
the referee would likely have stopped
play for the infringement if it had
been seen

Can y ou please show me where that Guide is. I don't remember seeing it in the laws of the game.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by AlaRef

Can you please show me where that Guide is. I don't remember seeing it in the laws of the game.

Sure, here is where you will find that Guide:

http://images.ussoccer.com/Documents...ToProc0607.pdf

What ref47 posted is a direct quote from page 30 of the USSF Guide to Procedures. If you have never read it, you need to do so. His point is that the AR needs to heed the words, "the referee would likely have stopped play for." If the belief is that the referee would have allowed advantage instead of stopping play, then the AR should keep the flag down. (See the awkwardly worded passage on page 36.)



Part of the foreword to this document is:
"Alternate signals, procedures, and methods of communication within the officiating team are not authorized for games under the jurisdiction of the United States Soccer Federation using the diagonal system of control. Other signals or methods of communication intended to supplement those described here are permitted only if they do not conflict with established procedures and only if they do not intrude on the game, are not distracting, are limited in number and purpose and are carefully discussed within the officiating team prior to the commencement of the match."


The additional signal that ref2coach and I have been discussing would have to pass those requirements. I believe that an AR silently extending an open hand towards the goalline would qualify, but in my opinion having an AR call out "play on, advantage" would not, as it is both distracting and an intrusion upon the game, plus conflicts with the already established procedures. Of course, even what I have advocated borders on breaking what it says on page 36 -- "keeps flag down and does not use the verbal/hand signal for advantage." So the hand signal must be subtle.

[ref2coach]

Nevada Ref. Based on our discussions it appears that "now" there is more leeway than what either of us have believed in the past. Below is copied from the current front page of Jim Allen's USSF "Ask a referee".

"NEGATIVE" SIGNALS
Your question:
I have begun working games for another soccer association and the A/R uses a hand signal which I find unusual. On a close offside call the A/R will run down the touch with the flag in his outside hand and the other hand will be extended away from the body similar to a one armed advantage call. I assume they are doing this to inform me that the play was onside. Doesn't the mere fact that they are following the ball down the touchline tell me that the play was onside. This is a new one and me and I would like your thoughts.

USSF answer (May 2, 2007):
The extended hand is actually an old signal, one that was discouraged for a long time, calling it a "negative signal," but which has come up again. There is nothing really wrong with it, but your reasoning is clearly absolutely correct. The matter has not come up since the answer below was published August 27, 2004:
QUOTE
There was a time (longer ago than 3-4 years, however) when negative signals or, more generally, any signals not specifically approved by FIFA or USSF and not described in the Guide to Procedures were discouraged. With the publication of the 1998 Guide to Procedures, that emphasis began to change. The 1998 Guide stated:

Other signals or methods of communication intended to supplement those described here are permitted only if they do not conflict with established procedures and only if they do not intrude on the game, are not distracting, are limited in number and purpose, and are carefully described by the referee prior to the commencement of a match.

This included so-called "negative signals" (for example, the assistant referee indicating "no offside"). If the officiating team discussed such a signal ahead of time and it met the criteria, using it is okay so long as it is kept within reasonable limits. Remember, the purpose of any signal is to communicate so it must do that much at least.

USSF's approach continues to follow this guideline. Even the occasional use of some gesture by the referee to indicate a handling offense or tripping is acceptable if, in the opinion of the referee, it is NEEDED FOR THIS PARTICULAR GAME to communicate essential information in a critical situation. "Negative" or non-standard signals should not become standard practice for every game.
END OF QUOTE

[Nevadaref]

Yeah, I saw Jim's post over the weekend and was surprised by it. It is not the same instruction as I am getting from my friends who were at National Camp or the Instructors at Regionals.

But hey,... what do I know?