soccer officiating

[Art N]

Greyhound, I think "easier" is being used in realtive terms here, but since you are making comparisons...Just for fun...
(1) Count the number of rules in each sport. Basketball has a greater number to learn.
(2) How many times does call get made or whistle blow? Even with "play on's" and not blowing the whistle on many of the out of bounds plays, you have a far greater number of plays that call for an active response by the BB official.
(3) Weaker games. In BB, even in a game with lower skilled players, you will have alot of violations and hacking going on. Not so with soccer. You will hear many ref's say in BB that the lower skilled games can actually be harder than the higher skilled games. Soccer is the opposite, the higher skill means the contact is usually increased and will require the official to "work" harder even though he may seem to be just watching and running.
(4) Fans! They don't know the rules in most sport, granted. But with the amount of contact that's allowed (slide tackles, fair charges, 50/50 collisons, keepers diving & jumping for balls...)and the "play on" when a foul IS committed and THEY don't get a whistle or kick, they go nuts!
CASE in POINT...Just the other day, an undefeated team, A, scored a goal with 90 seconds left in the game. There was a hard but appartently legal tackle made by the losing team, B, on A with 24 seconds left, which left the player down. A parent (i.e. knucklehead) of team A, yelled at the kid, who yelled something back. The parent tripped him when he went by, and then hit him several times. He was arrested and ordered not to attend any games at B's school.

It seems most of us who have done a little of each agree that Soccer is easier. Don't take offense, I haven't done any World Cups yet, so what do I know. Have fun out there, it ONLY a game! Goooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaal

[Greyhound]

While we hve our abacuses out I will point out that while soccer has but 17 LAWS not rules, each one has additional items within them, particularly law 12.
Your point about the # of calls in BB is exactly what I am talking about. You call EVERY LITTLE CONTACT IN BB.That is easy.
Regarding out of bounds, try calling it from 40 yards away instead of 10 feet.
Higher level games are NOT always easy or hard. They can be easy when the teams are experienced and know what to expect, or they can be particularly hard when they are good at deception.
I dont do a little bit of both. I do ALOT of soccer. I have done 15 game weeks. All adult opens. If you dabble in soccer officiating you will probably be just another in the crowd. I wont settle for that..

[SpeedyGonGoalie]

Originally posted by Greyhound
While we hve our abacuses out I will point out that while soccer has but 17 LAWS not rules, each one has additional items within them, particularly law 12.
Your point about the # of calls in BB is exactly what I am talking about. You call EVERY LITTLE CONTACT IN BB.That is easy.
Regarding out of bounds, try calling it from 40 yards away instead of 10 feet.
Higher level games are NOT always easy or hard. They can be easy when the teams are experienced and know what to expect, or they can be particularly hard when they are good at deception.
I dont do a little bit of both. I do ALOT of soccer. I have done 15 game weeks. All adult opens. If you dabble in soccer officiating you will probably be just another in the crowd. I wont settle for that..

Excellent comments, especially about dabbling. I've refed soccer for 4 years, and I just started doing intramural basketball (NFHS rules) here at Indiana University. I think the major difference is that it's easier to be a good soccer ref than a good basketball ref, but it's worlds more difficult to be a GREAT soccer ref than a GREAT basketball ref, particularly because there is so much judgment involved.

[CecilOne]

Although I hate to disagree with Greyhound , I do.

Basketball is much harder than soccer, mostly because of less time to react, less space to work with, and basketball's American-dominated effort to make the rules as complicated as possible. Soccer rules stay simpler because no one knows how to translate the changes from Gaelic to Aramaic . But really, the number of actions that have to be dealt with and the proximity of benches and stands to the game make it substantially harder. And don't say that offsides is the hardest call in sports, because it isn't even close or even the hardest call in soccer.

Like some above, I also officiate other sports, one of which used to be basketball. Obviously, there are areas that are harder in any sport, like proximity to the play or problem in soccer. That is especially true in the diagonal system, which is defined to make coverage as hard as possible. Those who have experience in other sports are not as ego-driven about the one-ref and two semi-spectators aproach.

I also disagree with :
"(3) Weaker games. In BB, even in a game with lower skilled players, you will have alot of violations and hacking going on. Not so with soccer. You will hear many ref's say in BB that the lower skilled games can actually be harder than the higher skilled games. Soccer is the opposite, the higher skill means the contact is usually increased and will require the official to "work" harder even though he may seem to be just watching and running. "

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by CecilOne
Although I hate to disagree with Greyhound , I do.

Basketball is much harder than soccer, mostly because of less time to react, less space to work with, and basketball's American-dominated effort to make the rules as complicated as possible. Soccer rules stay simpler because no one knows how to translate the changes from Gaelic to Aramaic . But really, the number of actions that have to be dealt with and the proximity of benches and stands to the game make it substantially harder. And don't say that offsides is the hardest call in sports, because it isn't even close or even the hardest call in soccer.

Like some above, I also officiate other sports, one of which used to be basketball. Obviously, there are areas that are harder in any sport, like proximity to the play or problem in soccer. That is especially true in the diagonal system, which is defined to make coverage as hard as possible. Those who have experience in other sports are not as ego-driven about the one-ref and two semi-spectators aproach.

I also disagree with :
"(3) Weaker games. In BB, even in a game with lower skilled players, you will have alot of violations and hacking going on. Not so with soccer. You will hear many ref's say in BB that the lower skilled games can actually be harder than the higher skilled games. Soccer is the opposite, the higher skill means the contact is usually increased and will require the official to "work" harder even though he may seem to be just watching and running. "

Cecil:

I could not have said it any better. Thank you.

MTD, Sr.

[NCAAcoach]

this is the main problem with US soccer...the official of another sport thinking that they can become soccer officials because they may be adequate in another sport...this is absurd and hurtful to the sport...tho some may excel with soccer, most do not...they take the principles and thought processes of the other sports and try to make them work on the pitch...which hurts the sport and participants...to be a "true" soccer official, one must be dedicated to the sport, not a part-timer, attend mechanics courses and on-field clinics...soccer is played all-year round...in the Fall, winter(in-door) and spring/summer.....being a certified FIFA/NCAA soccer official, having played in the NCAA DI and professionally...and coaching currently in the NCAA...please stick to the club/youth matches for officiating....do not be a part-time(only for the extra paycheck)soccer official for our high schools and colleges...it hurts the integrity of the serious/"real" officials, the players and the "beautiful" game....do you see the best referees in the US doing multiple sports...NO...they master and fine tune on their sport..only!!

[NCAAcoach]

as to the question of which is easier to officiate...there shouldn't be a discussion...each sport/activity/scenario is unique in its own way, based on that moment in time...to say one is easier than the other is naive and biased...the best officials in any sport are the ones that are not noticed/do their job to the best of their abilities and do not become part of the game or interrupt its flow(within the rules/infractions of the game)...and this can only be done if he/she is a student/teacher/master/perfectionist of their game of choice.

[CecilOne]

Why is "my sport only" heard more often from soccer players than any other sport? It seems very narrow-minded to not recognize the others. That includes a friendly joust about the officiating differences between sports.

While I understand the need for dedication and disdain officiating just for the money, I find it grossly insulting to put down those who officiate more than one sport or whose season is less than 12 months a year. Many who officiate more than one sport show their dedication to officiating by putting major effort into each, even during the "off-season". If an official needs 365 days a year to "master and fine tune on their sport"; then maybe they don't have it. Forget the stragglers and money-only ones; anyone else with reasonable learning ability can make themselves focus on the principles of the sport at hand and not be disoriented by another.

Don't tell me
"stick to the club/youth matches for officiating....do not be a part-time(only for the extra paycheck)soccer official for our high schools and colleges...it hurts the integrity of the serious/"real" officials, the players and the "beautiful" game".
First of all, it's not just for the check and saying we are not serious/real is both insulting and lacking in perception. Second of all, sticking to the youth matches if you are not competent for higher levels just misleads the teams into future problems. Third, doing high school only allows one to know and use those rules and mechanics and not be disoriented by officiating "another sport", USSF/FIFA soccer.

There is a big difference between competency and visibility ("do you see the best referees in the US doing multiple sports"). Just because an official is seen at soccer matches/games all year around does not mean better judgement, more knowledge or more dedication and certainly not more integrity.

Many of us who are committed to soccer and see it as a great game, also see that it's about time the soccer community gets over their global snobbishness and inferiority complex to recognize that we officials have officiating in common with other sports. Just because an ex-player might feel slighted by an official who does not live and breathe soccer 24/7/365; does not mean that the rest of us are not very capable and successful.

Even though I agree with
"each sport/activity/scenario is unique in its own way, " and "the best officials in any sport are the ones that are not noticed/do their job to the best of their abilities and do not become part of the game or interrupt its flow(within the rules/infractions of the game)";
those who want to participate in a discussion of them can do so. However, the latter part of that quote is a frequent mantra of coaches whose teams foul a lot.

[NCAAcoach]

if you would have read my comments at the beginning...i said a few multiple officials can do well in soccer...if you are one of them...great...but having been paired with many "other" sport officials...IMO most do not...and are you saying fine tuning one's skills/mechanics year round means they are inferior some way in some aspect of the game???...that statement is nonsense...the best soccer officials are year round/dedicated to their sport...do they make mistakes...of course, its human nature...and to say that the officials that are not noticed is a statement by a coach who's team fouls alot is a bad perception...soccer is a 90-minute contact sport that has bodily contact(borderline foul-play from the start to finish) and only the soccer official who FULLY understands the nature of the game in its entirety can be an effective/efficient match referee...again this is not flaming the multiple official who can handle their chosen sports...it is based on my experiences with sub-par officials who only do it for the money...IMO they would be better officiating the other football.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by NCAAcoach
if you would have read my comments at the beginning...i said a few multiple officials can do well in soccer...if you are one of them...great...but having been paired with many "other" sport officials...IMO most do not...and are you saying fine tuning one's skills/mechanics year round means they are inferior some way in some aspect of the game???...that statement is nonsense...the best soccer officials are year round/dedicated to their sport...do they make mistakes...of course, its human nature...and to say that the officials that are not noticed is a statement by a coach who's team fouls alot is a bad perception...soccer is a 90-minute contact sport that has bodily contact(borderline foul-play from the start to finish) and only the soccer official who FULLY understands the nature of the game in its entirety can be an effective/efficient match referee...again this is not flaming the multiple official who can handle their chosen sports...it is based on my experiences with sub-par officials who only do it for the money...IMO they would be better officiating the other football.

I have to jump back into this discussion.

Coach, if you take the time to read my profile you will see that the vast majority of my officiating experience is in basketball. One could quite correctly make the statement that basketball is the sport that I treat seriously as an official and that I officiate baseball, softball, and soccer for fun. As well as being a rules intepreter and instructional chairman in basketball, I sit on four national committees of IAABO.

Yes, I do take basketball officiating seriously. BUT, I also take officiating baseball, softball, and soccer officiating seriously. I study the rules and mechanics manual for those sports and attend rules interpretations meetings also. When I step on the diamond or pitch, I conduct myself in a professional manner appropriate to the sport I am officiating. I take pride in doing the game correctly. I may officiate baseketball at the women's college level and officiate in AAU and YBOA national baseketball tournament and only officiate baseball, softball, and soccer at the high school level, but I still give those other three sports the same professional attention both on and off the field that I do to baseketball.

I will be the first to tell you that basketball is the sport in which I consider myself the officiating "expert", but I also pride myself on being a competent official in those other sports.

Coach, I will be the first to agree with you that there are far to many incompetent officials in basketball, baseball, softball, and soccer, because these officials really do not care about doing a good job. But you holier than thou attitude about soccer is just flat out wrong.

We are sports officials first, and we all should remember that.

MTD, Sr.

[NCAAcoach]

Point taken Mark...you may be one of the minority that excels at both/many sports...however the majority do not...which is my main point...as your reference to the"holier than thou" attitude towards my sport...I would agree, it is the attitude US soccer needs to continue to keep pace with the rest of the world..as shown by their superb World Cup showing...my question to you Mark is ...if you were coaching in a Final Four Championship situation would you prefer the "expert" soccer official or the one that is only "competent??" and vice versa if it was a March Madness basketball scenario would you want the "expert" hoop official or an "only competent" part-timing soccer official doing hoops??