DUAL mechanics, anyone?

[CecilOne]

Observations in DUAL system NFHS games:

Using the throw in signal for goal kicks and fouls
Lining up at the corner like a linesman for corner kicks
Free kick restart whistles by trail
Blowing whistle for subs after throw in was taken
Immediate IFK signal for offside (like linesman flag)
Using IFK signal for wait
Not reporting scores and cards
Never leaving the touch line
Not stopping clock on goals
Not knowing subs are unlimited after caution
Standing still while play is flowing back and forth

Has anyone else been seeing things like this?

[Nevadaref]

Well, I haven't seen it quite that bad, but the dual system really is a thumbs down.
It is awkward to try to watch the play for fouls and to stay with the second to last defender for the offside.
I also do not feel that there is as much game control as in the three-person system, since the ball and the better players spend most of their time in the middle of the field while the two officials spend almost all of their's along the touchlines. Calling fouls from a long distance away is the norm.
Sadly, due to economics and the shortage of available officials we have to do quite a few games as duals.

[CecilOne]

Those problems with dual are from those not doing it well. If by three-person system you mean diagonal, that's mainly a one-person system; unless they are exceptional. The real best coverage is triple (double-dual) which overcomes the dual problems you mentioned and allows the end refs to get close to play near the goal line.

[ejstuart]

Personally, I'm always surprised that in the dual, more people DON'T line up behind the kicker when the corner is on their side. I don't know how many times I've called the goal kick when the kicker puts english on the kick...a call you can't make if the ball is sailing over your head and you're standing 2 yards off the line.

I'll also admit that I always put the arm up when I'm whistling offside. Absolutley no question as to what call you're making that way...

What is the "throw in signal"? I assume that you mean the arm out 45 degrees above horizontal...if that's the case, how are you supposed to signal a foul?

Around here, the only time we do dual is for JV games, and for those games, it would be sillier to have 3 officials...

[CecilOne]

Corner kick positioning is not a question of preference, but defined mechanics; on the line between the goal and the PA line and it does require turning your head. Being 2 yards or even 2 feet off the goal line is also incorrect.
Arm up is the IFK signal. It is used after offside, dangerous, obstruction, and keeper violations; so it cannot make the call clear by itself.
Foul direction is signaled by the arm horizontal to the ground, not up 45 degrees.
Saying diagonal is silly for JV implies that it's better.

[ejstuart]

There are mechanics that don't make sense.
Standing on the goal line, where a kick is going to be directed directly at you is pure foolishness, I think. It IS a matter of preference...the mechanics are "to serve as an introduction to the dual system of officiating". Therefore, as you gain OJT, you should modify them to suit you better. The first tenent of all sports officials is to not get in the way of play, if possible.

Therefore, you also see that the arm parallel to the ground looks sloppy (to me) The direction states "point in direction of kick"...not "keep arm parallel to the ground"

As far as the offside signal, I'll direct you back to you beloved NFHS mechanics....to signal a foul you: 1) Blow whistle 2)Visually indicate the direction of the throw and type of free kick 3)Indicate the signal for the foul (see p.76)

And, most JV games could be run by trained monkeys. Using the dual isn't better, but using the DSC wastes the time valuable time of one official...when there aren't enough of us to go around as it is. Officiating a HS JV match (especially girls) is usually like taking candy from a baby.

Just my 1/50th of $1

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by ejstuart
There are mechanics that don't make sense. Standing on the goal line, where a kick is going to be directed directly at you is pure foolishness, I think. It IS a matter of preference...the mechanics are "to serve as an introduction to the dual system of officiating". Therefore, as you gain OJT, you should modify them to suit you better. The first tenent of all sports officials is to not get in the way of play, if possible.

OK, some don't make sense, but if they are prescribed, use them. Standing "on" the outside of the goal line during a CK is not in the way, adapting with experience determines how far from the goal and varying that with the player position. It's really not hard to turn your head (or body) after seeing the ball in play.

Originally posted by ejstuart
Therefore, you also see that the arm parallel to the ground looks sloppy (to me) The direction states "point in direction of kick"...not "keep arm parallel to the ground"

See signal #1 in the book.

Originally posted by ejstuart
As far as the offside signal, I'll direct you back to you beloved NFHS mechanics....to signal a foul you: 1) Blow whistle 2)Visually indicate the direction of the throw and type of free kick 3)Indicate the signal for the foul (see p.76)

Technically, offside is not a foul, but first or second, at least use it.

Originally posted by ejstuart
And, most JV games could be run by trained monkeys. Using the dual isn't better, but using the DSC wastes the time valuable time of one official...when there aren't enough of us to go around as it is. Officiating a HS JV match (especially girls) is usually like taking candy from a baby.

Glad to hear your games are so easy. Our JV games tend to have the strange calls, players and coaches who don't know what's going on, more boom-ball, etc. But easy or hard, I agree that "using the DSC wastes the valuable time of one official" or maybe both flaggers.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by CecilOne
The real best coverage is triple (double-dual) which overcomes the dual problems you mentioned and allows the end refs to get close to play near the goal line.

I also officiate basketball and my state uses three-whistle mechanics for varsity games, so I am quite familiar with the basics of this idea. However, my experience as an official has taught me that soccer officials are very resistant to going to the three whistle system. There are some good reasons for this, but the two that stand out the most to me from my experience in basketball are the consistency of foul calls and sharing coverage areas of the field.
With only one official calling the fouls it is easier to have a standard of what is allowed and what is being called a foul in any given game. The moment that you change to multiple officials this becomes more difficult and the officials have to really have some teamwork. The teamwork aspect is even more essential when we begin to talk about sharing and respecting each other's coverage areas.
Personally, I would like to see the sport go to a three-whistle system, but until this is done at the highest levels it will not happen at the lower levels. And if it does get implemented in a few select places, it will not be fully accepted until the World Cup is called with three whistles.
Basketball has the top down system already in place, and since the NBA and NCAA have both adopted the 3-whistle system it is much easier to put it into the HS game.

Just a couple of thoughts.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

I also officiate basketball and my state uses three-whistle mechanics for varsity games, so I am quite familiar with the basics of this idea. However, my experience as an official has taught me that soccer officials are very resistant to going to the three whistle system. There are some good reasons for this, but the two that stand out the most to me from my experience in basketball are the consistency of foul calls and sharing coverage areas of the field.
With only one official calling the fouls it is easier to have a standard of what is allowed and what is being called a foul in any given game. The moment that you change to multiple officials this becomes more difficult and the officials have to really have some teamwork. The teamwork aspect is even more essential when we begin to talk about sharing and respecting each other's coverage areas.
Personally, I would like to see the sport go to a three-whistle system, but until this is done at the highest levels it will not happen at the lower levels. And if it does get implemented in a few select places, it will not be fully accepted until the World Cup is called with three whistles.
Basketball has the top down system already in place, and since the NBA and NCAA have both adopted the 3-whistle system it is much easier to put it into the HS game.

Just a couple of thoughts.

NevadaRef: I could not have said it any better than you just did. Kudos.

MTD, Sr.

[CecilOne]

And it works in basketball, which is more difficult to ref consistently and has the officials much closer to each others' calls. The difference is moving from two (who always shared) to three, instead of from one to three. FIFA wll not change first, because international egos are bigger than local egos, so we have to keep trying "down here".

[ejstuart]

I fail to see the benefits of the three whistle system. Granted, I've never seen it in action, or even discussed about being used.

I read the back of the NFHS rulebook, and to me it just seems like the DSC, except you put whistles in the mouths of the ARs. What's the advantage to that? Someone always needs to be even with the second to last defender, and close enough to the touchline to determine fouls.

In the DSC, the AR has just as much authority to call a foul as the R. It has nothing to do with egos at the FIFA level...the DSC just plain works for the game. The only tweak that should be done is to have some sort of system to monitor the endlines, but that's only needed at the highest levels.

So, what are the benefits of the 3 Whistle System? The one "benefit" mentioned (allowing closer monitoring of plays at the goal line) isn't really a problem is it? You just need to adjust your viewing angles more than you would when play is in the midfield....

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by ejstuart
I fail to see the benefits of the three whistle system. Granted, I've never seen it in action, or even discussed about being used.

I read the back of the NFHS rulebook, and to me it just seems like the DSC, except you put whistles in the mouths of the ARs. What's the advantage to that? Someone always needs to be even with the second to last defender, and close enough to the touchline to determine fouls.

In the DSC, the AR has just as much authority to call a foul as the R. It has nothing to do with egos at the FIFA level...the DSC just plain works for the game. The only tweak that should be done is to have some sort of system to monitor the endlines, but that's only needed at the highest levels.

So, what are the benefits of the 3 Whistle System? The one "benefit" mentioned (allowing closer monitoring of plays at the goal line) isn't really a problem is it? You just need to adjust your viewing angles more than you would when play is in the midfield....

I have to disagree with you concerning the first two sentences of your second paragraph. The AR's do not have as much authority as the R in the DSC. The AR can pop his flag, but if the R wants to wave him down he will because he has the final authority on all calls.

[ejstuart]

You couldn't have done better to prove exactly why I think the DSC can't be beat.

Of course the referee does have the authority to overrule (at his own peril) if he so chooses if the referee had a different view.

But, how does one "wave down" a blown whistle?

[Nevadaref]

The main advantage as I see it would be that the AR now has the authority to stop the game when needed to take care of something that happens behind the Ref's back. (Note: this doesn't mean that you have to stop the game for something away from the play, just as in basketball the AR would have to use good discretion on when to do this, but simply having the power to do so might stop a lot of the cheap stuff. Cleaning up the off-ball play was the main reason for putting a third official on basketball games. In soccer he is already there; all we have to do is empower him.)
Have you ever had something occur and you can't get the R's attention or the play goes to the other end and due to the flow of the game it becomes too late to handle it when the R finally comes back. (I know the pros use beeper flags for this.)
Instead of having three officials out there what we have now is one official with two helpers. This does not foster teamwork.
In basketball no official has the authority to overrule the call of another, but they can discuss the call and attempt to convince him otherwise. I think this system works far better than the current DSC.
Look at the play in tonight's baseball game between the Yankees and Red Sox. With 6 guys out there, they really have to work as a team, and that was most clearly apparent on the homerun off the foul pole. Originally, Angel Hernandez, who was on the right field line, called it foul, then home plate umpire Tim McClelland came out and instructed the hitter to keep running while they talked about it. The TV announcers made it sound like he overruled him (and maybe he did, I don't do baseball and don't know if he has the power to do so), but if you listened to Joe Torre's postgame interview he said that Tim told him that he and three other umpires saw it as a homerun, so he had to accept that and walk away. That sounds like the rest of the crew convinced him he was incorrect to me.

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by ejstuart
I fail to see the benefits of the three whistle system. Granted, I've never seen it in action, or even discussed about being used.

I read the back of the NFHS rulebook, and to me it just seems like the DSC, except you put whistles in the mouths of the ARs. What's the advantage to that? Someone always needs to be even with the second to last defender, and close enough to the touchline to determine fouls.

In the DSC, the AR has just as much authority to call a foul as the R. It has nothing to do with egos at the FIFA level...the DSC just plain works for the game. The only tweak that should be done is to have some sort of system to monitor the endlines, but that's only needed at the highest levels.

So, what are the benefits of the 3 Whistle System? The one "benefit" mentioned (allowing closer monitoring of plays at the goal line) isn't really a problem is it? You just need to adjust your viewing angles more than you would when play is in the midfield....

OK, you have never seen it or used it and some of us have. It is definitely not whistles in the mouth of AR's. That is the problem, conceptuallly seeing only diagonal. Look at it as dual plus a middle to always be trail, which reduces the coverage areas and provides a better angle on plays in the middle of the field.

If someone on a line can see plays on the far side of the field as well as if they were 10 yards away and can always get the best angle on plays away from that line; diagonal would have a case. But that is geometrically and humanly impossible.

In dual and triple, the referees run with the play to see goal line and touch line plays as well as those well into the field. They are not chained to the corner flag and kept off the field. The benefit of triple over dual is allowing the lead to stay nearer the lines and the middle to be covered on a counter attack with the middle ref in proximity to the concentration of action.

The overriding benefit of dual or triple over diagonal is allowing multiple view angles on play chosen by all three officials as the players move.