Unfortunately, Brad closed the "People Skills" thread before I could make my actual point. I was simply waiting for someone to point out that my claim about the all-female crews was not true (which, of course, it's not). I was then going to object that my claim was based on my opinion, my personal interpretation of the facts, and therefore could not be contradicted, despite its obvious falsity.

I'm pretty sure that point had some relevence to the "People Skills" thread, but I won't belabor it. Additionally, since I think I've shown the obvious falsity of Jeff's position, I will make no more contributions to the topic.

Thanks for putting up with the whole 9 pages of the previous thread, which I think made the whole issue very clear.

Chuck

I was staying out of that thread, although I read it. I also just read the Toni Smith thread that was just closed. I wish it wasn't because I had a reply for you buddy Jeff regarding one of his comments that went:

"Most of the people in the military now are there to go to school, not go to war. That is the reason they joined in many cases."

Talk about generalizations! How dare he try to characterize not only MY career but millions who have come before me and those who will follow. I can't even continue to right what I really feel in a public forum, I guess I'll have to send him a personal email. Unbelievable that someone could make a statement such as that.

Mregor

That is a statistical fact. We have a volunteer Military. Most of the individuals that are in the Military have used the Military to get an education. Most of todays Military used the G.I. Bill or joined as a reserve to pay for the education. Over 30% of the Military is African-American alone and most used the Military to go to college. I know of several people now that have been deployed to Iraq or sent in support of this war, all in those cases got money for their educations. If that is a generalization, show me that it is not true. But I really do not care if you show it, prove it or not. The information is out there and you can find it or not.

Peace

No it is not.

Exact quote.
 

<i>"One of the main reasons it is not defined is because we have people on this board that think your test score is the determiner of what officiating is all about."</i>

This was the quote from the post. This is obviously based on an opinion that I still believe and do not expect everyone to agree with. To me when an official on this board can praise an first year for knowing the rules by passing <b>one test</b> and not having to see plays and situations live and in technocolor supports this myth that officiating is about passing tests. And then every time you bring up this issue, someone give some example of what is stated in the rulebooks about "knowing the rules." Now I have never said that knowing the rules in not important at all, but people keep thinking and stating that this is what I believe. Personally I do not care what people think about my position. I just do not take the "company line" position and preach that passing a test proves anything. The only thing test prove is that you prove that test. They do not prove that you walked away from it and learned anything.

Peace

Just because you say it is?
 

Is it not because you say or is it not because you have statisitical proof that my statement is not true?

I will let you answer that one for yourself.

Peace

Re: Just because you say it is?
 

You made the claim, show proof (oh wait, I recall you've been down this road once with Chuck...I guess I won't hold my breath.)

Re: Re: Just because you say it is?
 

I have already referenced my proof. Just because you do not accept it does not mean that it is not true. You are the one claiming that it is false, show me why it is false. Do not just say, "that is not true," and expect me to agree with you.

We have been down this road before, you and I. ;) So if you are saying that over 50 percent of the todays Military did not use the G.I. Bill or any governement program to get an education, show me the statistic and I will say that you are right and we will end this conversation.

Peace

Re: Re: Re: Just because you say it is?
 

No, that's not what I'm saying, and believe it or not it is not what you said originally. You said "Most of the people in the military now are there to go to school, not go to war.... I'll agree that no one wants to go to war (well...99% anyway). I would hope that 100% of service people take advantage of every single benefit the government offers during their time in service & when they are done. But there's quite a difference between "people join the military to get money for college" and "people eligible for military benefits tend to use them".

And no, you never answered Chuck's question.

Okay, JRutledge, you've made two claims here that need to be addressed.
First of all, you claimed that "most" people in the military are there for school benefits (GI Bill). You have no basis to make that claim. The fact that someone uses the GI Bill IN NO WAY means they joined the military solely for that purpose. The only way you could possibly make this claim is if you did a statistically accurate survey that asked these people their reasons for joining the military. I've known many in the military (throughout my career) who joined for various non-school reasons, and ended up using the GI Bill. People use the program because it's there. Also, I'm relatively positive that more than 50% of the people in the military are beyond their first enlistment. Anyone who reelists must, in my opinion, be there for reasons other than the GI Bill, because they are actually postponing its use.
Are there people who join for that purpose? Sure. Probably a high percentage, but to make the claim that more than 50% did so is not supportable.
Secondly, you claimed that "over 30% of the military is African-American alone." This is simply not true. Every statistic I've seen places that figure around 20%, not 30%. I'm trying to find more sources than just CBSnews.com, but can't find much right now.

SNAQWELLS

Re: Re: Re: Re: Just because you say it is?
 

So you are telling me that the people that joined the Military, joined to go to war and only go to war? Maybe that is true but that seems based on an opinion than something that can be proven. My statements are not about each and every soldier's deep personal belief system, but about what is being done as a condition of their enrollment in the military. If you join the United States Armed Forces and use the sitation to further your education, then to me you have joined for that purpose. Otherwise you join and do not take any advantage of any of the services that provide money for an education.

Peace

http://dod.mil/prhome/poprep2000/htm.../c2_raceth.htm

Are we talking deep personal views?
 

I just read a report that 34% of the United States Armed Forces was African-American. Even if it is 20%, that is way above the percentage of African-Americans in the larger society which is around 12%. To me personally, that is a problem on many levels.

Again, if you think it is not above 50%, then show me the percentage that is not. I have seen and read reports that most of the military uses education services. And if you think every joined the military to serve the country for the same reasons you think they did, I will always take issue with that. Everyone does not view this current war or the reasons for what happen on 9-11-01 the same. They just don't.

Peace

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Just because you say it is?
 

Where did I say that?

Quote:

...If you join the United States Armed Forces and use the sitation to further your education, then to me you have joined for that purpose. Otherwise you join and do not take any advantage of any of the services that provide money for an education. Peace

Most people who go to Yankee Stadium will use the restroom. Therefore people go to Yankee Stadium to use the rest room.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Just because you say it is?
 

I thought most people go to Yankee Stadium to boo the Red Sox.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Just because you say it is?
 

You don't need to go to the Stadium to boo the Sox. Even people who go to see NY's JV team (at Shea Stadium) boo the Sox.

Jeff, please don't think of this as my attempt to try to pick an argument. I just wanted to point out the falicy in some of your statements.

First, I haven't seen statistics produces to qualify the statement as a statistical fact. All I saw was an interpretation of some supposed statistics that exist "out there".

This is the first fact stated in the post. We can all agree that our military is volunteery because we do not have a draft and we are not FORCED to serve.

First, I have no idea how many "most" is. Is most 75%, 51%. Most indicates a majority but it doesn't indicate how MUCH of a majority.

Second, simply because those who join the military take advantage of a service offered isn't proof in and of itself. All that can be stated as fact is that many people who enroll in the military take advantage of the educational opportunities. I think we would be foolish NOT to believe there are a few who join the military for the GI bill benefits. Most is carrying this too far in my opinion.

I might be able to agree with this because here is the first statistic offered. This is a number that can be verified


Here is the "most" statement again. How many is "most."


Really, what you are saying is that, from your experience, those who joined the military did so because they wanted to take advantage of the GI bil. You may be carrying this too far but stating, "most of those who join the military". That is A LOT of people.

It is a generalization and it cannot be proven until we have a working defintion of "most". If you had said "all", it could easily be disproven because "all" suggest 100%.

An unsupported vague opinion is not fact. :)

Well I guess if you say it, it must make sense.
 

Yankee Statium?

I guess that makes sense.

Peace

Re: Are we talking deep personal views?
 

The Department of Defense website that Dan referenced shows that the branch with the highest percentage of African-Americans is the Army, with 23.0%. The Marines are the lowest, with 12.8%. The Air Force and the Navy are both right around 20%. What report did you read? Where can I get it?
Beyond that, when you look at those fields who are most likely to be killed or wounded in combat, African-Americans make up a decidedly smaller percentage of the forces. From what I've seen, that percentage is far more commisserate with their overall representation in the population at large.
I would like to know why you see this as a problem, especially in a volunteer military (as opposed to forced service with its inevitable loopholes). Frankly, I've found the diversity to be one of the more refreshing aspects of my military service.

As for what percentage of people joined for the military benefits: I don't know. It could be over 50%. It could be 10%. Given that well over 50% of the military (Active, Reserve, and Guard) that I've been in contact with are beyond their initial enlistment, I can only assume they are in for reasons other than the GI Bill.
The point about Yankee Stadium is valid, if comic. The burden is on you to show why "most" of those in the military joined for school.
BTW, I'd say virtually none of them joined to go to war. They joined to serve their country in a very meaningful and real way. Many did so with the nice GI Bill incentive, but to suggest that was their sole reason for entering is quite a stretch.

Peace (even if it means war first)

Adam

Perfect logic.
 

You are absolutely correct. So all the information in opposition is exactly the same as my claim. Not one person has given me any information that it is not true. Not one person has given a statisitic. So it is also not true that people join the military service for God and Country, which appears what you are saying. Because what are the reasons they do join? Did they join because of September 11, 2001. Did they join because there parents were in the Military? Did they join for a sense of duty to the country? Did they join to avoid prosecution or terms of a probation? I have not heard you say why they join, you are just saying I am wrong. That makes sense.http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/conf.gif

Peace

Re: Well I guess if you say it, it must make sense.
 

Your inability to understand the analogy does not surprise me.

Just read a report at

http://www4.nas.edu/news.nsf/isbn/0309085314?OpenDocument

It doesn't specfically address this topic, but it does state the following:

"In addition, fewer young people list 'doing something for my country' as an important occupational objective. Because youth who value making a contribution to their country are more likely to join the military, the committee pointed out that promoting such patriotic ideals in young people will expand the pool of likely recruits."
(emphasis mine).

Re: Perfect logic.
 

I wan't the one to offer up a theory as to why people join the military.

I was only pointing out that your theory was using flawed reasoning.

Re: Re: Are we talking deep personal views?
 

The problem what I have with your agrument, you come down to what the essence of what I am saying and have absolutely no way of confirming or denying my claim. You say you do not know, then say I am wrong and you "do not know." Then you say, "it could be 10% or it could be 50%." Then you say, <b>"They joined to serve their country in a very meaningful and real way."</b> You have statisical evidence for this claim? So you can say with a straight face, they joined the military for reasons to serve this country in a meaningful and real way? Why can they not join the military because they had very little options? Why could they have not joined the military because their parents were about to throw them out of the house? Please tell me, I would really like to know.

Peace

You should practice the old proverb that states: Better to have people think you are an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. Your claims are your personal opinion and not supported by any statistic. BTW, in the Air Force, the percentage of African-Americans is 16%, not 30. This is supported by fact. http://www.afa.org/magazine/chart/0101chart.html
I don't know about the other branches, the Army is probably somewhat higher but not enough to make it 30% in all the military. Don't insult all military members, me included, by saying that we joined the military to get an education. Believe it or not, some of us actually joined to serve our country.

Mregor

Re: Perfect logic.
 

This might take you a while Rut, it's got numbers in it.

http://www.defenselink.mil/execsec/adr97/appg.html

So here's the bottom line: the report looks at things that bring kids into the recruiter's office (education, career training, change of environement...etc) and things that push them out (fear of war, not wanting a regimented life, etc). But this quote tells us WHY THEY JOIN (ie the single most common factor for those who sign the papers). Not surprising, when you think about it.

And BTW, my own experience tells me there is not a recruiter alive today who will talk to a kid who is in legal trouble. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

Re: Re: Perfect logic.
 

OK, fair enough. But then to say I am wrong and offer no information that is specific, is extreamly flawed to me. If you are going to say I am wrong or my argument is flawed, I would expect some specific information suggesting that this is not true. Not just "you are wrong." You have to do better than that.

If I was to write a paper or thesis on this very issue and read some statistics, I cannot just say, "the author's position on this issue is wrong." I would have to give specifics or other studies that might contradict the original statement. I have read and have seen reports that suggested that over 50% of the military is involved in the G.I. Bill or other education services offered as a result of their enlistment. I can honestly tell you that I do not know the exact source it came from or when the report was taken. But to suggest that I am only wrong because it does not jive with your personal beliefs is very flawed. No one has really offered the reason they do join.

Peace

Re: Re: Re: Are we talking deep personal views?
 

No, I don't have statistical evidence to back up my claim, any more than you do for yours. However, I'm not going to sit here and defend my statement as "statistical fact" as you have yours. My statement was more of an effort to point out that virtually no one joins "to go to war." There are countless options for why, and the list you gave is a good start. Those reasons are also good alternatives to your claim, that most join to pay for school.
You offered the claim, you stood by it as "statistical fact," I did not.
You might be right, but you won't prove it, even though you say it's fact. You offer one unverified statistic; that most use the GI Bill. Logical reasoning does not lead me to believe that everyone who uses the GI Bill joined just to pay for school. Every military member with dependents also gets a housing allowance, but I doubt you'd claim we got married (or had kids) just to get the housing allowance.
For crying out loud, just admit you misspoke and we can all move on. You made a decent point, that going willy-nilly into a war is not a good idea; and that people in the military don't generally want a war if it's not necessary. But it was drowned out by your insistence on holding to unverified claims of fact.

Adam

Air Force?
 

Is the Air Force only one branch of the Military? Still higher than the population of this country. That is the actual point, not the exact percentage. It shows how "smart" your argument is, you are spending time arguing a number and not what the number means.

I guess sense you are calling folks names now, why do you not look up the numbers of what the percentage of all African-Americans in the Armed Services (BTW, that is not just the Navy). :rolleyes: I do not know about you, but the fact that the numbers are that high when the overall percentages of the population are that low, is not only alarming to me and disturbing. But sense you think you know everything, I will let you figure out what why that is.

Peace

Re: Re: Re: Perfect logic.
 

All I can say is that you haven't provided the facts. If I've made the claim that people join the military for other reasons rather than the educational opportunities, I am wrong to have done so. I will restate what I believe:

I have no idea why people join the militray.

I've done a little research on the web and posted what I found and that's where I am going to stop because I really don't have much interest in the subject nor the time to do extended research.

I don't doubt the military uses all means at its disposal to get people to join. It's kind of like recruiting for any major life event. Colleges will woo prospective athletes through any means available to them. I doubt the military is any different and the G.I. bill would seem like a major advantage to poorer people considering college.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Are we talking deep personal views?
 

Now I am suppose to say I misspoke on an issue that I believe to be true. So you are telling me, I have to back off my statments because you cannot prove that they are wrong? So you are telling me that you cannot prove any information that I said was completely wrong, even thought you do not even seem to understand my point at all about percentages? I will state this so that you can educate yourself that the uses of the statistics for me is not really about the actual number. For me the statistics illustrate the disproportionate number of African-Americans or Blacks that join the military and cannot get those same opportunities elsewhere. So the fact that African-Americans have to join the military to get education for schooling and job training to even be considered for military and disproportionally have to be put in harms way for a war that they might not politically believe in. If you just look at the numbers that voted for President Bush and those the percentages that will vote for him in the next election, to go fight in a war does not believe you want to serve your country in this capacity. So if over 50 percent of a specific population is voting for a particular person, but being put in harms way on a higher percentage, I find something extreamely wrong with that. You can argue whether the percentage is 24% or 35%, the fact still remains to me something is out of wack.

But to come back to to the G.I. Bill issue, I still have not seen anyone that proves me wrong statistically. I wonder why you guys do not spend the same issue claiming that people officiating is about the "good ole boy network." I do not see anyone asking for proof or asking for a statistical breakdown. There are people that believe this to be totally true and I do not see the claims to prove that information. It is the case in our state and many other aspects of life, but I do not see you going all over the board claiming that someone "misspoke."

Peace

Re: Re: Re: Re: Perfect logic.
 

For me this is not about what the Military uses to get people to join. I am personally of a generation that this deals with primarily. Dan even gave a site that dealt with 18-24, I am much closer to that age group than many are here (by what the individuals claim their age is). I went to school and work with people that used the military to get education funding. Many National Guard and Reserves members are former students that are in Iraq now!! But I guess someone will claim that statement is wrong. So be it, life goes on.

Peace

Rut

According to the Department of Veteren Affairs, that is the department that handles the GI Bill, only 57% of those eligible actually used their GI Bill benefits.

http://www.army.mil/soldiers/mar2002...mar0222-23.pdf

These are the latest statistics I could find, but I doubt that it has changed much.

Call me a glutton...
Rut, with regard to the GI Bill. Your claim that everyone who uses the GI Bill joined the military for that purpose is not supported by reason.
I have not said you are wrong. I don't know. You have said this is a statistical fact, I haven't even claimed your wrong. I do maintain (opinion alert) that you shouldn't back something up as fact (rather than opinion) if you can't back it up. I did offer reasoning as to why I think you're wrong. You haven't even addressed the fact that people who stay beyond their initial enlistment cannot place education at the top of their priority list.

WRT the population distribution of the military. The only place I found anything above 30% was in reference to either African-American women, over 30% of women in the Army are African-American. Wait, I just found another. 36% of all military personnel in support and administrative roles are African-American. While their level of vulnerability is assuredly larger than my wife's, they're not going into combat. African-Amercians make up 15% of the infantry-type units. I suppose this is larger than the 12% figure you gave for the general population, but I question whether it is a large enough difference to make one upset. But, that's a judgment call.
As for reasons why the numbers are higher, I'll grant that one reason is likely (alert, the following is my opinion and not a statement of fact) along your reasoning. That for many, it is the only (or easiest) way to earn a decent living. I'm not sure that's it's a bad thing that the option is there. It's not a problem with the military, it's a problem with the economy in general.

I ask the question again. Why does the 20% figure bother you?

Adam

You should know.
 

If you are going to quote me, quote me properly. I did not say anything about "everyone that uses the GI Bill." I said that most of the people that go into the military today, use the opportunity to get funding for education.

If I state something, use a statistic that contradicts it. Do not just tell me how I should have formed the argument or what I should have not said. I am a grown *** man, I can say anything I choose no matter what you think. This is a free country. I think George Bush is an a horrible President and is going into this war for self-servicing reasons.



I will let you tell me. You know everthing else I should have done.

Peace

Double Talk
 

Here is your direct quote. So, if you are going to quote yourself, do it correctly. I don't wish to get into this debate. However, I couldn't resist pointing out that you, my friend, are a double-talker.

That's all.