downing a punt???????????// spot..

otis3zeb · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 01, 2003, 07:41pm

Guys,

Team A punts, ball is rolling toward the goal-line, R moves completely out of the way, K is trying to down the ball, dives ahd grabs it at the 1 foot line, ball is not across the goal-line, but his legs and feet are clearly across. Or k is standing on the goal line, and batts it backwards to the 5 yd line, ball did not cross the goal-line, lets discuss???...

Theisey · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 01, 2003, 07:53pm

nothing to discuss. The ball did not break the plane of the goal line. That is all that matters.

Ball dead when K possesses the ball at the spot of ball.

K's bat it legal, and also the spot of first/illegal touching. Mark it with a bag, but team-R can pick it up and run with it or if it is blown dead at the 5, take it there.

MD Longhorn · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 02, 2003, 03:14pm

I agree with your ruling. I am wondering why we see it called differently so often - at all levels. I'm assuming this MUST be different at the NFL level, because you're always seeing K team players batting the ball back, but barely touching the goalline, and it's ruled touchback.

But it seems we see this same ruling in NCAA and below.

Bob M. · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 02, 2003, 03:46pm

I believe the NFL requires that the K player must also be in the field of play (i.e. not in the endzone) when he touches the ball. I'll check on that and report back.

BktBallRef · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 02, 2003, 05:09pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mbcrowder
I am wondering why we see it called differently so often - at all levels.

I've never seen it called that way. The position of the ball is what matters, not the player. it's no different than a ball fielded down the baseline in baseball. It's where the ball is when it's touched the determines whether it's fair or foul.

Warrenkicker · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 02, 2003, 06:00pm

Some of why these plays are called differently at different levels may come from what makes a touchback. NF declares a TB when the ball contacts the plane of the GL. NCAA the ball has to touch the EZ or GL before it is a TB. NFL doesn't stop the play until the ball becomes dead or until nobody is going to get it. NCAA you can catch the ball in the field of play and carry it into the EZ and it is downed at the spot where possession was established. NFL won't let the player ever touch the GL or EZ before or during touching or possession. If someone else touches it first then the player who was in the EZ can then touch the ball without causing a TB.

It all must be based on the idea of what the official at each level is capable to rule on and what the players should be capable of doing. Just like one foot in-bounds instead of two for NFL.

theknightswhosay · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 26, 2005, 07:20pm

I'm watching the LSU/Tennessee game. An LSU player at the two yard line batted a punt down and it landed at the six. It was marked at the 6. I always thought the ball was dead where it was touched regardless of what direction it went. I certainly have never noticed the ball pushed backward and then for the spot to be where the ball landed. Was it the correct call? Is there a difference between NFL and NCAA? Does it matter which direction the ball goes? I know it wouldn't have mattered if it went into the endzone after being touched; I may be unclear about where the ball is marked down.

jack015 · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 26, 2005, 08:06pm

Quote:

Originally posted by theknightswhosay
I'm watching the LSU/Tennessee game. An LSU player at the two yard line batted a punt down and it landed at the six. It was marked at the 6. I always thought the ball was dead where it was touched regardless of what direction it went. I certainly have never noticed the ball pushed backward and then for the spot to be where the ball landed. Was it the correct call?

Touching the kick at the 2 did not cause the ball to become dead - it became dead at the 6. R has the option of taking the ball at the spot of the touching by K or the results of the play.

Bob M. · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 26, 2005, 08:10pm

Quote:

Originally posted by theknightswhosay
I'm watching the LSU/Tennessee game. An LSU player at the two yard line batted a punt down and it landed at the six. It was marked at the 6. I always thought the ball was dead where it was touched regardless of what direction it went. I certainly have never noticed the ball pushed backward and then for the spot to be where the ball landed. Was it the correct call? Is there a difference between NFL and NCAA? Does it matter which direction the ball goes? I know it wouldn't have mattered if it went into the endzone after being touched; I may be unclear about where the ball is marked down.

REPLY: When the kick was touched at Tenn's two, it constitutes an "illegal touch." After the play ends, it's Tenn's choice whether to take the result of the play (their ball at their own 6) or take the ball at the spot of the illegal touch (Tenn's 2). Where would you take it??

JasonTX · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 26, 2005, 08:10pm

Quote:

Originally posted by theknightswhosay
I'm watching the LSU/Tennessee game. An LSU player at the two yard line batted a punt down and it landed at the six. It was marked at the 6. I always thought the ball was dead where it was touched regardless of what direction it went. I certainly have never noticed the ball pushed backward and then for the spot to be where the ball landed. Was it the correct call? Is there a difference between NFL and NCAA? Does it matter which direction the ball goes? I know it wouldn't have mattered if it went into the endzone after being touched; I may be unclear about where the ball is marked down.

In NCAA the receiving team can take the ball where it was illegally touched or where the ball becomes dead. In your play they chose to take it where it became dead at the 6. The ball doesn't become dead when the kicking team touches it. It becomes dead when possessed by the kicking team or once the ball rolls to a stop and no player attempts to get the ball.

Snake~eyes · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 26, 2005, 08:30pm

Do you actually give them the option or just signal and give them the better spot?

theknightswhosay · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 27, 2005, 09:31pm

So the kicking team could touch it and then the receiving team can still pick it and run with it, as long as the kicking team never possesses the ball? What if the kicking team touches it and then it hits a member of the receiving team, can the kicking team then pick it up and run with it? Or does it matter if the kicking team caused the contact with the receiving team? Do you know what the NFL rule is?

By the way, the answer(s) explain(s) why I've never seen them spot the ball farther back when it goes in the other direction.

waltjp · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 28, 2005, 06:54am

Quote:

Originally posted by theknightswhosay
What if the kicking team touches it and then it hits a member of the receiving team, can the kicking team then pick it up and run with it?

The receiving team can take the spot of first touch. R's ball.

Suudy · #14 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 28, 2005, 09:44am

Quote:

Originally posted by theknightswhosay
So the kicking team could touch it and then the receiving team can still pick it and run with it, as long as the kicking team never possesses the ball? What if the kicking team touches it and then it hits a member of the receiving team, can the kicking team then pick it up and run with it? Or does it matter if the kicking team caused the contact with the receiving team? Do you know what the NFL rule is?

I don't know the NFL rule.

And waltjp is right, it is R's ball at the spot of first touching. However, K cannot advance a kick beyond the NZ, so the ball is dead once possessed.

And it does matter if K blocked or pushed R into the ball. Such touching is ignored.

Note that the right to first touching is cancelled on a foul by R after the touching.

But this does bring up a question. Suppose K bats the ball away from R's endzone into K. Then K recovers. I know that K can take the ball at the spot of first touching. However, let's spice it up a bit.

K's ball, 4th and 10 from K's 50. K1 punts and as the ball is bounding towards R's endzone, K2 bats the ball away from the endzone at R's 5. The batted ball striks R1 and K2 recovers at R's 6. After the touching, R2 blocks K3 in the back.

Ruling?

I think it is K's ball. Since R touched the kick, and he wasn't blocked or pushed into the ball, K can recover. But I'm not sure where. Since R fouled after the first touching, R's right to the spot of first touching is cancelled. And this is a PSK foul, but must it be declined in order to keep the ball? If so, K's ball, 1st and 10 from R's 6.

Warrenkicker · #15 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 28, 2005, 11:44am

But if R's touching of the ball was caused by K's batting then the touching is ignored. If this touching was not caused by K's batting then K can keep the ball. The ball becomes dead when K recovers. The foul by R will have to be declined if K wants to keep the ball at R-6. Otherwise this is a loose-ball foul which has a previous spot enforcement and results in a 1-10 for K at R-40.

6-1-5 If any kicker recovers or catches a free-kick, the ball becomes dead. It belongs to him unless it is kick-catching interference and R chooses an awarded fair catch or unless it is first touching. The kickers may recover the ball before it goes beyond RÂ’s free-kick line if it is touched first by any receiver. Such touching in the neutral zone by R is ignored if it is caused by K pushing or blocking R into contact with the ball or if K muffs the ball into contact with R. Any kicking team member may recover a free-kick if it has both touched the ground and gone beyond the plane of RÂ’s free-kick line. The two requirements may occur in any order. If a free-kick becomes dead inbounds between the goal lines while no player is in possession, or inbounds anywhere while opponents are in joint possession, the ball is awarded to R.