Guys,

Team A punts, ball is rolling toward the goal-line, R moves completely out of the way, K is trying to down the ball, dives ahd grabs it at the 1 foot line, ball is not across the goal-line, but his legs and feet are clearly across. Or k is standing on the goal line, and batts it backwards to the 5 yd line, ball did not cross the goal-line, lets discuss???...

nothing to discuss. The ball did not break the plane of the goal line. That is all that matters.

Ball dead when K possesses the ball at the spot of ball.

K's bat it legal, and also the spot of first/illegal touching. Mark it with a bag, but team-R can pick it up and run with it or if it is blown dead at the 5, take it there.

Misconception
 

I agree with your ruling. I am wondering why we see it called differently so often - at all levels. I'm assuming this MUST be different at the NFL level, because you're always seeing K team players batting the ball back, but barely touching the goalline, and it's ruled touchback.

But it seems we see this same ruling in NCAA and below.

I believe the NFL requires that the K player must also be in the field of play (i.e. not in the endzone) when he touches the ball. I'll check on that and report back.

Re: Misconception
 

I've never seen it called that way. The position of the ball is what matters, not the player. it's no different than a ball fielded down the baseline in baseball. It's where the ball is when it's touched the determines whether it's fair or foul.

Some of why these plays are called differently at different levels may come from what makes a touchback. NF declares a TB when the ball contacts the plane of the GL. NCAA the ball has to touch the EZ or GL before it is a TB. NFL doesn't stop the play until the ball becomes dead or until nobody is going to get it. NCAA you can catch the ball in the field of play and carry it into the EZ and it is downed at the spot where possession was established. NFL won't let the player ever touch the GL or EZ before or during touching or possession. If someone else touches it first then the player who was in the EZ can then touch the ball without causing a TB.

It all must be based on the idea of what the official at each level is capable to rule on and what the players should be capable of doing. Just like one foot in-bounds instead of two for NFL.

Punts
 

I'm watching the LSU/Tennessee game. An LSU player at the two yard line batted a punt down and it landed at the six. It was marked at the 6. I always thought the ball was dead where it was touched regardless of what direction it went. I certainly have never noticed the ball pushed backward and then for the spot to be where the ball landed. Was it the correct call? Is there a difference between NFL and NCAA? Does it matter which direction the ball goes? I know it wouldn't have mattered if it went into the endzone after being touched; I may be unclear about where the ball is marked down.

Re: Punts
 

Touching the kick at the 2 did not cause the ball to become dead - it became dead at the 6. R has the option of taking the ball at the spot of the touching by K or the results of the play.

Re: Punts
 

REPLY: When the kick was touched at Tenn's two, it constitutes an "illegal touch." After the play ends, it's Tenn's choice whether to take the result of the play (their ball at their own 6) or take the ball at the spot of the illegal touch (Tenn's 2). Where would you take it??

Re: Punts
 

In NCAA the receiving team can take the ball where it was illegally touched or where the ball becomes dead. In your play they chose to take it where it became dead at the 6. The ball doesn't become dead when the kicking team touches it. It becomes dead when possessed by the kicking team or once the ball rolls to a stop and no player attempts to get the ball.

Do you actually give them the option or just signal and give them the better spot?

So the kicking team could touch it and then the receiving team can still pick it and run with it, as long as the kicking team never possesses the ball? What if the kicking team touches it and then it hits a member of the receiving team, can the kicking team then pick it up and run with it? Or does it matter if the kicking team caused the contact with the receiving team? Do you know what the NFL rule is?

By the way, the answer(s) explain(s) why I've never seen them spot the ball farther back when it goes in the other direction.

The receiving team can take the spot of first touch. R's ball.

I don't know the NFL rule.

And waltjp is right, it is R's ball at the spot of first touching. However, K cannot advance a kick beyond the NZ, so the ball is dead once possessed.

And it does matter if K blocked or pushed R into the ball. Such touching is ignored.

Note that the right to first touching is cancelled on a foul by R after the touching.

But this does bring up a question. Suppose K bats the ball away from R's endzone into K. Then K recovers. I know that K can take the ball at the spot of first touching. However, let's spice it up a bit.

K's ball, 4th and 10 from K's 50. K1 punts and as the ball is bounding towards R's endzone, K2 bats the ball away from the endzone at R's 5. The batted ball striks R1 and K2 recovers at R's 6. After the touching, R2 blocks K3 in the back.

Ruling?

I think it is K's ball. Since R touched the kick, and he wasn't blocked or pushed into the ball, K can recover. But I'm not sure where. Since R fouled after the first touching, R's right to the spot of first touching is cancelled. And this is a PSK foul, but must it be declined in order to keep the ball? If so, K's ball, 1st and 10 from R's 6.

But if R's touching of the ball was caused by K's batting then the touching is ignored. If this touching was not caused by K's batting then K can keep the ball. The ball becomes dead when K recovers. The foul by R will have to be declined if K wants to keep the ball at R-6. Otherwise this is a loose-ball foul which has a previous spot enforcement and results in a 1-10 for K at R-40.

6-1-5 If any kicker recovers or catches a free-kick, the ball becomes dead. It belongs to him unless it is kick-catching interference and R chooses an awarded fair catch or unless it is first touching. The kickers may recover the ball before it goes beyond R’s free-kick line if it is touched first by any receiver. Such touching in the neutral zone by R is ignored if it is caused by K pushing or blocking R into contact with the ball or if K muffs the ball into contact with R. Any kicking team member may recover a free-kick if it has both touched the ground and gone beyond the plane of R’s free-kick line. The two requirements may occur in any order. If a free-kick becomes dead inbounds between the goal lines while no player is in possession, or inbounds anywhere while opponents are in joint possession, the ball is awarded to R.

Somebody is using my old name (see far above). I DID NOT POST THAT, and thought that screen name was dead.

Anyway - NCAA and NFL are the same in the fact that K's touching of the ball doesn't kill the play, and gives R a (nearly) free pass at picking it up after a touch and trying to advance it. They differ in that the NFL uses Basketball-style rules regarding the end-zone line on this play, and the NCAA doesn't care where the player is when they touch it - only where the BALL is. (Note - I say "nearly" above because if R is called for a foul during the return, they lose their ability to go back to the K-touch spot if K accepts the penalty.)

Someone mentioned above that it wouldn't matter if the ball rolled into the EZ after K touched it at the 2. It WOULD matter. If it rolled into the EZ, R would get the ball at the 20, not the 2.

Just want to note that there can be multiple "spot of first touching" spots. Rule 6.2.5.

So if K touches a scrimmage kick that is untouched by R beyoned the expanced neutral zone, say at the 5, 8 and 10 before the kick comes to rest. R has the choice of all three spots...
barring penalties.

Got enough bean bags! ;)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Suudy

Quote:

...K's ball, 4th and 10 from K's 50. K1 punts and as the ball is bounding towards R's endzone, K2 bats the ball away from the endzone at R's 5. The batted ball striks R1 and K2 recovers at R's 6. After the touching, R2 blocks K3 in the back.

REPLY: I think warrenkicker inadvertently quoted the first touching rule for <u>free</u> kicks instead of <u>scrimmage</u> kicks, but the principles are the same.

Take a look at these excerpts from NF 6-2-4 and 6-2-5:
<b>ART. 4…</b>(referring to touching of a kick by a receiver) <i>"...Such touching is ignored if it is caused by K pushing or blocking R into contact with the ball or it is caused by K legally batting or muffing the ball into R." </i>
<b>ART. 5…</b> (referring to how R's right to first touching may be cancelled) <i>"The right of R to take the ball at spot of first touching by K is canceled if R touches the kick and thereafter during the down commits a foul or if the penalty is accepted for any foul committed during the down."</i>

K first touched this scrimmage kick at R's 5. Since K batted the ball into R, that touching by R is ignored. In short, they didn't touch the ball. Therefore, the first way for them to lose their first touch privelege (by touching the ball and thereafter fouling) is moot. However, they did commit a foul (IBB). So if K accepts the penalty for this foul, R's right to first touching is cancelled. But assuming that R's IBB occurred beyond the expanded neutral zone (suudy didn't say exactly where), this foul now qualifies for PSK enforcement. It will be R's ball 1-10 at R's 3 (end of the kick) or from some spot closer to R's goal line (if R's foul occurred inside R's 6).

LSU/Tennessee example
 

In the play that led to my question, the receiving team took the ball where it went dead rather than where it was touched. If the receiving team had committed a foul, could they still take the ball at the 6 rather than the 2 (assuming they had touched the ball as a result of the batting of the ball)?

Re: LSU/Tennessee example
 

Be careful reading too much into some of the replies above as some replies are for NFHS (high school) My replies are strickly NCAA (college and high school in Texas and Mass.)
An accepted penalty cancels the illegal touch. In your example the kick ended at the 2 so that is end of the kick (post scrimmage kick spot) Here's the requirements for post scrimmage kick enforcement. The enforcement spot is the spot where the kick ends when Team B fouls occur
a. During scrimmage kick plays other than a try and during extra periods.
b. During a scrimmage kick play in which the ball crosses the neutral zone.
c. Three yards or more beyond the neutral zone.
d. Before the end of the kick.
e. When team A does not have (legal) possession of the ball when the down ends.
Team B fouls behind the postscrimmage kick spot are spot fouls.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bob M.

Quote:

Since K batted the ball into R, that touching by R is ignored. In short, they didn't touch the ball.

Yeah, I went back and looked it up. I didn't recall seeing batting or muffs in the description of what touching is ignored. But yeah, 6.2.4 says it.

Thanks for the pointer!

Yes I did. I meant to paste this.

6.2.4 SITUATION: It is fourth and 10 and K11 punts the ball from K’s 40-yard line. While R1 and K1 are engaged in blocking downfield at R’s 30-yard line, K2 legally bats the ball at R’s 28-yard line and the batted ball touches R1 on the leg. Then, K3 recovers the ball at the 30-yard line. RULING: This touching by R is ignored and R will have the choice of taking the ball at the spot of first touching or the dead-ball spot.

Re: Re: LSU/Tennessee example
 

By cancel the illegal touch, you mean that the option to take it at the 6 is created because of the illegal touch at the two. Making that touch no longer illegal cancels the option?