Roughing or PF

sm_bbcoach · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 29, 2003, 09:47am

CAn there is a roughing the passer on the 2nd legal forward pass?

3/25 @ A23. A-15 throws a legal pass to A-80 catches it at A19. He then turns and throws a pass to A-88 who catches the pass at A43, where he is downed. After the second pass, A-80 is hit in after the ball has left the passers hand (the would have been a roughing the passer if on QB' s first pass).

IS this just a PF or can there be roughing (to give A the 1st down???)

Rich · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 29, 2003, 09:59am

I think this is an excellent question, considering the...errr....unique feature of FED football that allows more than one forward pass.

The only place I could find a mention of a passer losing the "special protection" of the roughing penalty is on a play where he is beyond the neutral zone. I would say that if it is a legal passing play then it is roughing.

Of course, don't forget the flag for the ineligible downfield.

Rich

RedCashions · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 29, 2003, 10:03am

Can't be PF if more than one forward pass. 7-5-9c
See no reason why it can not be Roughing Passer. Rule 9-4-4 makes no mention of exceptions to the rule.

sm_bbcoach · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 29, 2003, 10:26am

Quote:

Originally posted by RedCashions
Can't be PF if more than one forward pass. 7-5-9c
See no reason why it can not be Roughing Passer. Rule 9-4-4 makes no mention of exceptions to the rule.

7-5-9c refers to interference, not personal foul.

RedCashions · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 29, 2003, 10:28am

Too true. I thought you had asked about PI. But that is something else for them to think about.

JMN · #6 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 29, 2003, 04:32pm

Quote:

Originally posted by RedCashions
Can't be PF if more than one forward pass. 7-5-9c
See no reason why it can not be Roughing Passer. Rule 9-4-4 makes no mention of exceptions to the rule.

How does the fact that it's more than one forward pass have anything to do with whether or not you can call a personal foul??

I would check your sources, but assuming the foul is truly action that constitutes a PF, I call a PF any time it is warranted, INCLUDING during the second forward pass on a play.

RedCashions · #7 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 29, 2003, 04:41pm

Appears you missed my previous answer in which I admit to misunderstanding the original question. I saw PF but replied thinking it was PI. Hence the reply of "Can't be PF if more than one forward pass. 7-5-9c." Should have posted that it "can't be PI if more than....." Being a neophyte to the Board I am still on a learning curve re: abbr. You are right the number of passes have nothing to do with a PF. But with regards to the questions posed the correct call should be roughing, not PF. Am I forgiven yet?

Forksref · #8 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 29, 2003, 05:25pm

No reason why not. The difference is in the penalty: all roughings are a first down. I think the intent is to protect the quarterback who is vulnerable immediately after the pass is thrown. I'd call it roughing the passer. Since the pass is from behind the NZ, the pass is a legal pass and that bolsters the case for roughing the passer.

Theisey · #9 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 29, 2003, 06:04pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Forksref
No reason why not. The difference is in the penalty: all roughings are a first down. I think the intent is to protect the quarterback who is vulnerable immediately after the pass is thrown. I'd call it roughing the passer. Since the pass is from behind the NZ, the pass is a legal pass and that bolsters the case for roughing the passer.

You probably didn't mean to phrase it that way, but the foul is roughing the passer. In the case of a legal foward pass, one, two, three or whatever number in NF only games, that passer could be anyone. Not just the player called the Quarterback.

Any player A-player can throw a forward pass and as long as the pass meets the crtieria for a legal forward pass, that player cannot be roughed.

To answer sm_bbcoach's question, Yes, you can have roughing call on that pass.

JMN · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 29, 2003, 06:26pm

Quote:

Originally posted by RedCashions
Am I forgiven yet?

Red,

No problem. I'm just neurotic cuz I screw up more than I get right. Thought I missed something and want to make sure if we make mistakes on this board that we call it out so that it's not taken as "gospel" and missapplied.

Sorry if I was too direct!

Welcome to the board

JMN · #11 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 29, 2003, 06:40pm

I agree with Theisey.

The only thing that I would add is that if it is not apparent that the player running with the ball is going to pass, you must use judgement on the call.

Example; QB A12 drops back and throws a forward pass to A80 behind the line of scrimmage. A80 runs a reverse across the field towards the other sideline. As he has established himself as a runner, he then stops abruptly and throws the ball (he's still behind the LOS) downfield to A44. Once he releases the ball, B78 a) wraps and tackles him, b)picks him up and drives him into the ground.

In a, no foul. In b, personal foul or roughing?

My only point is that on a play such as this, the defense gets some room if it's not aparent the runner is going to pass the ball. However, they are still governed by the rules and should be penalized for inappropriate football or non-football acts.

JugglingReferee · #12 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 29, 2003, 09:58pm

Quote:

Originally posted by sm_bbcoach
CAn there is a roughing the passer on the 2nd legal forward pass?

3/25 @ A23. A-15 throws a legal pass to A-80 catches it at A19. He then turns and throws a pass to A-88 who catches the pass at A43, where he is downed. After the second pass, A-80 is hit in after the ball has left the passers hand (the would have been a roughing the passer if on QB' s first pass).

IS this just a PF or can there be roughing (to give A the 1st down???)

I am interested - how is the situation in NF that allows for a 2nd legal forward pass?

(Is a forward pass in NF the same for Canada - a pass towards to other team's goal line?)

Mike

Warrenkicker · #13 (**permalink**) Sat Aug 30, 2003, 09:37am

A forward pass is one where the ball does not move parallel to the LOS or toward the offense's EZ. I think the reason to allow multiple forward passes is to keep the official's from having to rule that a swing-type pass was forward or not when the offense then throws another forward pass after. Swinging gate formations would seem to be an instance of where it is more likely that there could be more than one forward pass.

BktBallRef · #14 (**permalink**) Sat Aug 30, 2003, 09:49am

Quote:

Originally posted by JMN
My only point is that on a play such as this, the defense gets some room if it's not aparent the runner is going to pass the ball. However, they are still governed by the rules and should be penalized for inappropriate football or non-football acts.

It's no different than roughing the punter. If the contact is avoidable, it's roughing.

Quote:

Originally posted by JugglingReferee
I am interested - how is the situation in NF that allows for a 2nd legal forward pass?

7-5-1
It is a legal forward pass, if during a scrimmage down and before team possession has changed, a player of A throws the ball with both feet of the passer in or behind the neutral zone when the ball is released. More than one forward pass may be thrown during the down.