PSK --- Double fouls --- One more time

[Ed Hickland]

I was curious and decided to research the NCAA book on double fouls. BTW NCAA calls them offsetting fouls.

Rule 10-1-4 reads...
4. If live-ball fouls by both teams are reported to the referee, each such foul is an offsetting foul, the penalties cancel each other, and the down is replayed (A.R. 10-1-4-II, IX and X).

Exceptions:

2 . When Team BÂ’s foul calls for postscrimmage kick enforcement, Team B may decline offsetting fouls and accept postscrimmage kick enforcement.

So when the D-I official says B can decline A's foul and keep the ball he is right, at least, when playing by NCAA rules. NFHS has no such exception this year. Double foul with B or R's being a PSK -- replay the down.

[Warrenkicker]

cowboyfan1 - The situation you are talking about in the OSU/Neb game was where the kick catch interference by K was a post-possession foul. Thus the hold by R was PSK and so both fouls didn't happen with a change of possession between them. Since they were both post-possession they offset by NCAA rules.

At least that is my read on the play. I don't know NCAA rules that well.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally posted by Warrenkicker
cowboyfan1 - The situation you are talking about in the OSU/Neb game was where the kick catch interference by K was a post-possession foul. Thus the hold by R was PSK and so both fouls didn't happen with a change of possession between them. Since they were both post-possession they offset by NCAA rules.

At least that is my read on the play. I don't know NCAA rules that well.

How could kick catching interference be post-possession?

[kentref]

Go to the NFHS web site and look at "Situation 13" under the Football - 2003 Rules Interpretations. When K fouls prior to the kick and a foul by R meets the other criteria for PSK enforcement, it is a double foul and the down is replayed.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by kentref
Go to the NFHS web site and look at "Situation 13" under the Football - 2003 Rules Interpretations. When K fouls prior to the kick and a foul by R meets the other criteria for PSK enforcement, it is a double foul and the down is replayed.

I had a chance to talk to another Clinician in my state, and he made clear that the NF made several mistakes in their publication. And he said that Situation 13 is in direct contrast to what was stated on the Powerpoint presentation that he gave to a couple associations. And he instructed that this is not a double foul. Mainly because the rule wording does not suggest it is with the "clean hands" reference. And also factoring that the NF was trying to substitute the NCAA Rule in their intent, this clearly would not be a double foul in NCAA Rules.

Peace

[Warrenkicker]

Originally posted by Ed Hickland

How could kick catching interference be post-possession?

I believe that the NCAA has always allowed R to keep the ball for kick catch interference. It is all a matter of when possession is concidered to have changed. NFL says possession changes at the kick. NF says possession changes at the end of the kick. I think NCAA says possession changes when the ball crosses the ENZ. That is why NCAA is allowed to decline the penalties by K before or around the snap and keep the ball.

[cowbyfan1]

From the replay the hold appeared to be actually on the K player that ended up committing the KCI. Both flags were upfield from the punt and within yards of the punt returner. So the foul was PSK situation at that point until the KCI.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally posted by Warrenkicker

I believe that the NCAA has always allowed R to keep the ball for kick catch interference. It is all a matter of when possession is concidered to have changed. NFL says possession changes at the kick. NF says possession changes at the end of the kick. I think NCAA says possession changes when the ball crosses the ENZ. That is why NCAA is allowed to decline the penalties by K before or around the snap and keep the ball.

NCAA Rule 2-2 states possession changes just as in NFHS when a player controls the ball. Rule 6-4 covers opportunity to catch the kick and the penalty is R gets to keep the ball and a 15-yard penalty. Possession does not change at the expanded neutral zone, in fact Rule 10-2-2-e-3 covering post scrimmage kicks never makes mention of an expanded neutral zone, that is an NFHS concept. NCAA book refers to crossing the line of scrimmage and three yards beyond the line of scrimmage. Yeah, yeah, that is the "expanded neutral zone" per se.

[Theisey]

NCAC has no definition for an expanded NZ. All we care about is whether a foul by R was within or beyond this 3 yard line. Wing men and U's can usually tell.

Team possession does not change just because the ball as crossed the NZ. That's what PSK is all about, to let Team-B keep the ball even though they had fouled before the kick has ended or was declared dead. That way the 3&1 principle can be applied using EOK as the basic spot.

Sure wish I could have seen this play. My gut feel is the enforcement was wrong.