K1 scrimmage kicks from the K 25 yard line. The kick is short and on a dead run to receive the kick R10 muffs it at the K37 yard line. In an attempt to fight for the ball, R45 grabs and twists K32 by the face mask. The ball rolls to the K23 yard line where it is recovered by R45.

Ruling:

Well this appears to meet the given PSK standards. Foul by R after ball crosses ENZ and R ends play with ball. No fouls by K before R took possession. R keeps the ball and 15 yard penalty for personal foul facemask will be marked of from K32 so 1-10 for R at K47.

I believe that the spot for the beginning of the next play should be R38. Reason: for the new PSK ruling, the rule states that the foul must occur prior to the end of the kick. By definition,"A kick ends when a player gains possession or when the ball becomes dead while not in player possession." (2-23-art. 2) Thus, the muff does not end the kick. The kick in this play ended at R23 when R45 recovered it. The enforcement spot is the end of the kick (R23 yard line) so the succeeding play begins at R38.

Even though the kick ended aty the 23, the foul was behind the enforcement spot. You then mark off the penality from there. It is the same as a foul behind the LOS.
At least this is the way I see it.

from another topic...doesn't the kick have to end beyond the enz???? 2-16-g to be considered for PSK enforcement

[Edited by cmathews on Aug 21st, 2003 at 11:53 AM]

sm bbcoach is correct! I am WRONG! The foul was by R behind the basic spot so the all but one applies. Thanks for waking me up!

guys I don't think it is PSK as my other post mentioned. Ond of the stipulations is that the kick ends beyond the ENZ, this kick does not....so in my mind 15 yards from the previous spot and either a first down for K or replay the down... 2-16g

The kick must end beyond the NZ for the foul to be enforced as PSK. 2-16-2(g)

Great discussion folks

Loose ball foul, enforcement from the previous spot. K's ball at the K40. It will either be 1st and 10 for K or 4th and ???.

OK, I may be missing something obvious, but this has me a little confused. The definition of post scrimmage kick foul in 2-16-2g includes "...scrimmage kick that ends beyond the neutral zone..." However, in 10-4-3 it states "The basic spot is the spot where the kick ends when R fouls occur:" and then lists criteria a-e. Nowhere in that list does it say the kick must end beyond the NZ, therefore it seems that this rule implies that the end of the kick should be used as the basic spot even if the kick ends behind the NZ. Please, clear things up for me if you can.

That the spot of the kick when it is behind the NZ is not mentioned because it does not meet the criteria for PSK set forth in 2-16 g. Therefore there is no PSK involved here, or in any kick that ends in or on K side of the ENZ

The kick need only end beyond the NZ. It's the foul that must occur beyond the ENZ.

take away my stripes
 

Did I mess up this play. Got so tied up on PSK, forgot the kick had to end pass the NZ. ARGH............. So, this is now a loose ball foul, 15 from the K 25, ball now at 40. 1/10 if enough to get to line to gain; else, 4/??.

K gets ball back. This is the reason PSK was derived. BUT NF has screwed it up by placing restrictions that does give the ball back...

NOW, if R recovers the ball at the 26, it is whole new ball of wax.... R keeps the ball, but back 15 yds. So, B ball 1/10 from the 47 (i am working form memory). The spot of enforcement is behind the PSk spot, all but one principle rules here. Fouls behind the spot are taken form there.

There, now...clear as mud!!!!!
Thanks for straightening me out!

[Edited by sm_bbcoach on Aug 21st, 2003 at 01:02 PM]

Re: take away my stripes
 

Not necessarily. We were never told where the foul occurs.

Re: Re: take away my stripes
 

Guess I was thinking the foul had occured at the spot of recovery.

the whole thing is based on the touching by r beyound the nz.. doesn't matter where the ball ends up the touching by r makes this a psk..

I'm confused by some of the posts here -
 

2-16-g-2 reads, exactly: "During a scrimmage kick play in which the ball crosses the expanded neutral zone." It doesn't say it ends beyone the expanded neutral zone.

The ball crossed the ENZ in the OP play.

PSK by 2-16-2g
Post-scrimmage kick — a foul by R when the foul occurs:
1. During scrimmage kick plays, other than a try or successful field goal.
2. During a scrimmage kick play in which the ball crosses the expanded neutral zone.
3. Beyond the expanded neutral zone.
4. Before the end of a kick.
5. And K does not have possession of the ball when the down ends and will not be next to put the ball in play.

I have added the emphasis to make a point.

I appears to me we have PSK under the condition that the foul occurred beyond the ENZ because:
1 is True
2 is True, the ball crossed the ENZ [rule does not say anything about ending up beyond the ENZ]
3 is True, only if foul occurred beyond the ENZ
4 is True because kick does not end until: Art. 2 . . . A kick ends when a player gains possession or when the ball becomes dead while not in player possession. So kick doesn't end until R recovers at K23.
5 is True R recovered at K23

All five conditions must be met for a PSK enforcement.

If foul did not occur beyond ENZ then not all five are true and I would go with loose ball play, previous spot, 15-yards and replay down. If 15-yds puts K beyond Line to Gain 1st/10, if not 4th and ????

So not enough info in original post for correct penalty enforcement.

That's my take on it.

REPLY: Assuming that the foul ocurred beyond the ENZ, this foul would be penalized using PSK enforcement. The fact that the kick ended behind the NZ is immaterial. All that matters is that it (the kick) crossed the ENZ. Where it ends is of no consequence.

2-16g: Post-scrimmage kick - a foul by R when the foul occurs:
1. During scrimmage kick plays, other than a try or successful field goal.
2. During a scrimmage kick play in which the ball crosses the expanded neutral zone.
3. (A foul by R) Beyond the expanded neutral zone.
4. (A foul by R) Before the kick ends.
5. And K does not have possession of the ball when the down ends and will not be next to put the ball in play.

Where in this rule does it say the kick has to end beyond the NZ? It has to go beyond but does it have to end beyond to be PSK?

The foul in this play, PSK, is enforced from the spot of the foul, A's ball first and 10.

It doesn't matter where the kick ends - during a scrimmage kick, other than a try or successfull field goal, PSK applies when:

The ball crosses the expanded neutral zone.
The foul occurs beyond the expanded neutral zone AND before the end of the kick.
R has the ball at the end of the play.

2-16-2g3 refers to the foul, not the end of the kick.