Yesterday (Saturday), I was officiating a Jr. High game. Home team (Team A for this situation) is winning 26-0 in the 3rd period with a couple of minutes left.

QB (A1) comes up to me and says, "We are going to take a knee." So (disregarding advice given here), I go to the defense and say, "He's taking a knee, stay off him." Well team A can't get things straigtened out so they take a timeout. They come back out to the playing field directly to the line of scrimmage and I remind the Defense to stay off the QB. You guessed it. QB doesn't take a knee and throws a pass into the endzone to score a 2 point try.

I now fully understand that it is not my job to protect the players from being hit and I will never tell the defense to stay off the QB. We will call this a lesson learned. I also recall this kind of thing has been discussed before, but I need a refresher. What would you do?

I blew the play dead before the pass was completed so we replayed the down under the I.W. rule because I blew it by telling the Defense NOT to play.

To those who said this was a bad idea, I aplogize for not listening. :(

We tell them, "If he takes a knee, don't hit him."

Didn't it seem odd to you that the QB was going to take a knee with a few minutes left in the 3rd quarter, then have to take a timeout to talk about it?

Regardless, I would not inform anyone of the QBs possible intentions on the play, especially the defense. You blow the whistle based on the actual results of the play not what you think will be the results.

(Dang... I better turn a light on to see what I'm typing!!!)

[Edited by Theisey on Aug 17th, 2003 at 08:23 PM]

There is a lesson here - ask Team A (privately) if they are remaining with the decision to take a knee. If so and they throw it, then here in Canada, we have a 10 yard misleading tactic penalty. If not, whistle in as usual. I wonder if you could say something like "Convert attempt," as a method, in a hint sort of way, to the defense that they are no longer taking a knee.

Mike

That was the phrase I usually used as well but I had a brain cramp and stated it like fact. But,even saying it like you state, it seems that players take that to mean, "He's taking a knee so don't hit him" and they don't play as hard.

I'm almost to the point of simply telling the offense to protect themselves because I am not telling the defense that they might take a knee. I'm thinking of arranging a signal for the crew so WE can be aware and be on our whistles quickly when the ball is downed.

Do you feel my reaction is a "knee-jerk" reaction to this?

Actually, no. This league EMPHASIZES sportsmanship and running up the score is frowned upon. It was obvious this team was MUCH better than their opponent. It isn't unusual for teams to do this when they are up by 21 or more. The league also mandates players get a certain number of plays. I think they were trying to get players into the game who still needed plays.



Does your crew have a signal so you are prepared for it?

Mike,
I commend the league for having teams not running up the score, but if that was the case in this play someone forgot about the sportsmanship part. Maybe Mr head coach should have been hit with an UC flag.

Regardless, there are other ways. While we have no such league rule for JV or modified games, I recall where a local PW league allowed the team behind to keep the ball once a point differential was reached. They kept the ball no matter what. The chains were bascially removed from the sidelines, any turnover was killed and the team behind retained possession at the previous spot. I'm not sure when the rule "kicked in" as it might have been at the start of the second half, don't really remember.
I think regular play was resumed once the point differential was reduced by 14 points, again, I'm not 100% sure anymore.

As far as a crew signal, we have none. When our Ref knows, he kills the play when it's over by rule. The rest of us officiate as we would normally. we get very vocal once we see what has just happened.

What's more unsportsmanlike?
 

Last year our varsity crew witnessed a team take a knee on a PAT in the second or third quarter (I forget exactly which). They were clearly the better team that night, but upon reflection we felt it was actually a much bigger slap in the face to do that. And, in the end, they ended up not achieving the 40-point differential which would have forced a running clock and ended the whole game that much quicker. They were lucky no one on either team suffered a pointless injury in a game who's outcome had been decided in the first few minutes.

I believe the team should punch in the PAT and then call off the dogs on the next series with lots of substitutions and conservative play calling on both sides of the ball.

hey mike was this a cifl game

It sure was.

This league has a number of special "sportsmanship" rules in place.

1. When a team leads by 21 or more points, they kick off from their own 20 yard line. If lead returns below 21 points, regular rules are used.

2. When a team leads by 24 or more points anytime during the 4th quarter, the clock runs non-stop. If the lead goes below 24, clock returns to regulation clock.

3. Teams are "encouraged" not to run up the score on one another but game officials are not to assess any penalty. That is left up to the league.


As far as a crew signal, we have none. When our Ref knows, he kills the play when it's over by rule. The rest of us officiate as we would normally. we get very vocal once we see what has just happened.

I'm thinking this will be the way we handle this play from now on.

Mike,

Back to the point of how to officiate a potential "I'm going to take a knee" play.

If declared by the offense (and I will ask them if it's that type of situation), then I will inform my U that A MAY take a knee on this play. My U will let the defense know on the break of the huddle that A MAY take a knee and if he does, lay off.

When A comes to the line, the U stays over the ball until I remind both A & B that IF A takes a knee you'd better lay off or risk a foul. But I also say that if A doesn't take a knee, then we're playing football, and protect yourself.

This approach does 2 things. 1) it ensures some level of safety for the players (especially the QB), and 2) it leaves room for the possibility that A may not take a knee. Mike, like you, I've been burned by the team that told me they were going to take a knee and then didn't. And although you can flag it, I prefer to leave a gap in the door for the defense to assume that A may not take a knee and be prepared. Then, I don't have anything to "clean up" should A change their mind.

I've had games where A tells me that they're taking a knee and then don't. Believe me, on the way to the next huddle that QB gets an earful and he loses the additional protection that I intended to provide.

Here's what I do
 

I do not give any indication to the defense that the other team is taking a knee. I do not give any assurance to the offense that I will protect them more than normal. I remind the defense that the play ends on my whistle. If I were to do otherwise then I would be controlling the game instead of officiating it.

If it is the end of a 'chippy' close game and A says they will be taking a knee, I, too, tell the defense that if the QB takes a knee, not to hit him. To ensure that they do, I stand in a lot closer to the snap, as does the U. This ensures that any extracuricular crap between lineman who may have gotten cranky is kept to a minimum.

I understand that fumbled snap changes everything there, but the obligation to safety in that situation trumps A's chance to try and score when the game has been decided.

Maybe I've led a "charmed life"---
but in my 34 years of football officiating,
I've never had a team say they were going
to "take a knee" and not do it. It has only happened
at the end of a game. All officials pinch in to
try to keep any end of game frustration from
getting loose. I've never had any real problems in
those situations.
(btw--I am an Umpire)

Re: Here's what I do
 

I disagree. We need to do a certain amount of preventive officiating and this falls under that category. Call it controlling the game if you want but it's certainly not controlling the outcome of the game. There's a difference.

I have always been under the school of thought to tell the defense to lay off. I am thinking not anymore because of this. I will tell my U to pinch in as will I and as soon as that knee hits, blow the whistle and get "into" the line to kepp things clean.
I supposed the A says they are going to take a knee and the defense is told, and then they don't that could possibly fall under USC. Infact that might be a thought.. If B is told to layoff and A does not take a knee, flag them 15 for USC from the previous spot, especially if they score. Treat it like "where's the tee play" play..

Taking the knee.......
 

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We use the same "school"....But original post said the knee was coming down in third period...sounds fishy to me, why waste a down? But, point well taken on a deke by A....we be taking a knee and then run play...talk about an insult......

Re: Taking the knee.......
 

Often happens in this league when a team is up by 21 points or more so I thought nothing of it. It was also during a try so they weren't exactly wasting a down.


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Seems there are two "schools of thought".

1. First school of thought: Let defense know, "IF he takes a knee, stay off the QB". Some choose to squeeze in from their normal positions.

2. Second school of thought: Don't say a word. Officiate by what happens.


I'm looking for advatages/disadvantages to each.

REPLY: What scares me about trying to inject too much preventive officiating into this situation is this: What happens if the QB muffs the snap? If you've gone so far as to tell the defense or imply that the offense will be taking a knee, you might be robbing them of an opportunity to recover if they only go at it half-speed. And in such a situation, an intention to take a knee may go by the boards and A may end up trying to advance against a relaxed defense. This is only going to get you in trouble. My solution: pinch in tight and be ready to blow the whistle as soon as the QB 'genuflects' toward the ground. Also, if A tells me he's going to take a knee and he doesn't, I'm not flagging it as USC. It might offend my sensibilities. I will be giving their coach a good talking-to, but I'm not flagging it.

Agree with Bob.

I believe our greatest risk here is when a dejected defense wants to get in "a few last licks" on the offense. Nothing good can come out of this and it is a situation that will either injure a player or start a fight.

So it is imperative that the U "warn" (not coach) the defense that it is a foul to take a cheap shot at an offense player. If after the warning, the defense inappropriately contacts an offense after the knee is down, then I've got a problem with that player.

We've all seen it and can usually guess the player that will do this. Maybe we can't stop the action, but we should do everything we can to discourage this behavior and we should flag it immediately.

The real test is at the end of the season, the last game, a team on defense that has absolutely nothing to lose!