NE vs Colts safety
 

Why was the punters feeble attempt at a throw not ruled an incomplete pass?

Even if a lateral or straight fumble, why a safety when NE knocked it through the end zone?

Because by rule, the offense in this play is responsible for the impetus of the ball even with the defense batting the ball.

Rule 3, Section 16

IMPETUS
Article 3 Impetus is the action of a player that gives momentum to the ball and sends it in touch.

The Impetus is attributed to the offense except when the ball is sent in touch through a new momentum when the defense muffs a ball which is at rest, or nearly at rest, or illegally bats:

(a) a kick or fumble;
(b) a backward pass after it has struck the ground;
(c) or illegally kicks any ball (12-4-3).

I think it was as simple as he never got the throw off, he raised up his hand to try to throw but the defender knocked it out of his hands before he could start the motion. Fumble out the back of the end zone - safety.

Because it wasn't a pass. Had this gone forward and out of the pile, it still would have been a fumble.

I am trying to understand the rule in lay person's terms.

Let's say that long snap had gone over the punter's head...and came to rest (or near rest) inside the 5-yard line. A defensive player dives for the ball...and knocks it out of the end zone. That would be a touchback? New England ball on the 20, 1st and 10?

Or....same situation. The ball is bouncing at the 10-yard line, heading toward the end zone (it is neither at rest or nearly at rest), when the defense tries to pick it up, but muffs it and the ball goes through the end zone. Is that a safety or a touchback?

In layperson's terms, if the ball ends up in your OWN endzone, it's either a safety or a touchback (generally a safety if it's your fault it ended in the EZ, a TB if it's the other team's) - very generally.

And to answer your specific question, yes - if Indi had provided the force that put the ball out of the EZ, NE would have the ball at the 20.

{Edited because I got the teams backward!}

Thanks.

What about the second scenario (ball is not at rest when the defense muffs it and it goes through the end zone?)

Your first situation would be a touchback...

Your second scenario, and the one you're asking about here would be a safety.

Why the different ruling if the defense never gained possession in either?

If the ball is at or nearly at rest, and the defense muffs (defined as touching of a loose ball by a player in an unsuccessful attempt to obtain possession of it) the ball and sends the ball into touch into the opponent's endzone, they have provided the impetus which sent the ball into touch. And a touchback is defined as such:

A Touchback is the situation in which a ball is dead on or behind a team’s own goal line, provided the impetus came from an opponent and provided it is not a touchdown (11-6).

In the second situation, since the ball is not at or nearly at rest, even though the defense muffs the ball and send it into touch (into the endzone), the offense is still responsible for the impetus of the ball. As such, it would be a safety. And a safety is defined as:

A Safety is the situation in which the ball is dead on or behind a team’s own goal line provided:

(a) the impetus (3-15-3) came from a player of that team;
(b) it is not a touchdown (11-2).

I guess if I were a smart-a$$ I would disagree with this rule and say it is not logical in my opinion, and therefore wrong. :D

But I'm not, so thanks. :cool:

Not necessarily. The covering official would have to judge whether the ball would have gone into the EZ absent the muff. If so, safety. If not, TB.

That's not what the rule says...and there is no case book play that says anything about having to make that judgement. If the ball isn't near or at rest...even if the defense muffs the ball when the ball probably wouldn't have gone into touch, impetus is still attributed to the offense.

A.R. 3.15 IMPETUS—BLOCKED PUNT—END ZONE

Fourth-and-10 on A7. A’s punt is blocked by B1. B2 muffs the ball at the A10, and the ball rebounds into A’s end zone where: a) A2 falls on the ball; b) A3 and B3 simultaneously recover the ball; c) the ball rolls over the end line.

Rulings:
a) Safety. (3-15-3)
b) Touchdown. (11-2-1, 3-15-3)
c) Safety. (3-15-3, 11-5-1)
NOTE: If A had recovered in the field of play, it would have been A’s ball, first-and-10.

I cannot speak for the NFL, but the rule is very similar in the NF or NCAA when it comes to the covering official to judge if the ball at rest or nearly at rest would have gone to the EZ. Maybe the NFL has an interpretation that further makes when this is clear (mostly with video) how this is ultimately to be adjudicated. In my experience it would take a lot for a bad snap that is not moving very fast to consider a new impetus (or force) to change the result of the play.

Peace

This is completely incorrect.

The appropriate NFHS Rule reference is 7-5-1, "Responsibility for forcing the ball from the field of play across a goalline is attributed to the player who carries, snaps,passes, fumbles or kicks the ball, unless a new force is applied to a grounded backwardspass , kick or fumble. The muffing or batting of a pass, kick or fumble in flight is not considered a new force".These exact definitions are repeated in NFHS 2-13-2 & 3.

NFHS: 2-13-1 advises, "Initial force results from a carry, fumble, kick, pass or snap. After a fumble, kick or backwards pass has been grounded, a new force may result from a bat, an illegal kick or a muff.

The fumble by the punter was not grounded, and although the muff by NE redirected the ball, the initial force created by the fumble had not ended and was therefore responsible for the ball exiting through the EZ.

8.5.2 SITUATI0N C: K1's punt is blocked on K's 5-yard line and the ball is
slowly rolling near the goal line. R1 attempts to recover and just barely touches
the ball. The ball then rolls into the end zone where K2 falls on it. RULING: The
covering official will have to judge whether or not a new force resulted from R1's
touch. The covering official must decide whether the original force was such thatthe ball could have gone into the end zone regardless of the muff. lf the covering official has doubt, he will rule that the force was supplied by the kick, thus resulting in a safety. lf the covering official rules R1 supplied the force, it is a touchback

Maybe it's just me, but I generally think applying NFHS caseplays to NFL rules discussions can be a huge mistake.

Yes, Mike, but I still believe that even in the NFL, a judgment would need to be made. Suppose the ball is rolling or bounding at the 5-yard line parallel to the EZ. This ball is never going into the EZ on its own. A team B player muffs the ball in an attempt to recover, and the ball goes OOB behind the GL.

Are you saying that the NFL ruling is always a safety?

This is a safety in the NFL and I've seen this situation play out.

I still think there might have been a judgment involved. Keep in mind the NFL does more video and more training to get more consistency. At the NF level or most states, this is what we are left with as a way to make a judgment for the most part. I have never seen a play where I even had to make that kind of determination.

I am not disagreeing that the NFL might have a standard, just thinking their overall philosophy is not much different than what has been stated at the NF level.

Peace

I'm saying it. APG is saying it. The NFL has said it on numerous occasions. The rule in question is quoted above - at rest or nearly at rest is the standard for ruling a new impetus... "never going on the EZ on it's own" is not. The only judgement in play in the NFL is whether the ball is nearly at rest or not. They don't have to decide whether it would or would not go into the EZ as you would in NFHS.

That is the language used in the NF and NCAA basically. And that would require judgment by the official to make that determination. This is not what I would consider a rules difference between levels.

Peace

Have you not seen a situation in an NFL game where a back will fumble the ball...the ball is rolling forward (toward B's end zone), B attempts to recover the loose ball and in the process, knocks the ball forward toward A's endzone...and ultimately, the ball goes out of A's endzone?

That's a situation where the ball would never have gone into A's endzone as the ball was rolling forward, but the ball is muffed by the defense into B's endzone...the result will be a safety still (in the NFL).

And the result by interpretation is the same at the other levels.

But the reality I cannot imagine many times where a ball is just sitting there and no one is going after it to the point this call will be made.

Peace

Agreed

I agree at NCAA and NFHS as well. A great point was made earlier there is no language anywhere stating we have to judge if the ball would have gone into the end zone without the muff.

Think of it like "it's a kick, it's a kick, it's a kick". It's A's impetus until it's not. The "not" conditions are an illegal kick, illegal bat, muff of a grounded scrimmage kick beyond the NZ, or muff of a fumble at rest or nearly at rest (remembering these off the top of my head so may not be 100% complete). Unless one of these happen the impetus/force has not changed.

Another concept is "flawed play". In this example, A has a flawed play because they fumbled the ball, had a bad snap, had a kick blocked, etc. B has not flawed anything.

Okey dokey. I'm really surprised that NFHS, with their adverseness to exceptions, hasn't also adopted this philosophy.

There are more exceptions than you realize in the NFHS rule book. They just don't always use the word "exception". Someone did a comparison between NFHS and NCAA on the different types of exceptions and the differences were not that great.

Sometimes it can be very easy to forget, that football is sport played by people of vastly different ages, different physical attributes, differnt skills and different thinking abilities.

High School, and obviously Youth Football is played, essentially, by children with some exceptions for those who are older, more physically advanced and extraordinary athletes whereas Intercollegiate Football is played by young ADULTS, who were likely from the upper talent levels of HS or Youth programs.

The ultimate level, NFL, is played by ONLY superior athletes, in the best physical condition who are full grown, committed men who and super talented to reach that level, so it really shouldn't be all that surprising that there would be different skill, talent and comprehension requirements for each progressive level.

Often many of the problems attributed to HS, or Youth football, are caused by totally ridiculous expectations rather than poor performance.

We went from the NFL to Youth ball.:rolleyes: