Clock Question After Timeout and Penalty on Subsequent Play
 

Georgia HS Association rules (GHSA).

At the end of prior play a timeout is called by the defense. Offense runs the next play which is a run and the runner is tackled on the field, however the offense is called for illegal formation. If the penalty is taken, does the clock start when the ball is set, or at snap?

Question is relevant as we were managing the clock at end of game, so had to take the down instead of the penalty.

EDIT - GHSA follows NFHS rules.

Ready for play. The previous play and the timeout are irrelevant. Why did the clock stop? To enforce the foul only. Start on the ready.

Thank you for your reply.

It just seems punitive to the defense in that situation, particularly when you're managing clock. No loss of down means in order to get the penalty yardage enforced you have to use multiple timeouts on the same down.

Huh:confused:


The clock was only stopped for the penalty assessment. Defense got to choose the yardage or the down. That is the extent of their options. Decline the penalty and you are one down closer to getting the ball back in your clock management. You don't get a choice of all 3. How badly do you want to punish the offense for a foul at the snap?

:When the clock counts...the referee is authorized to start the clock on the snap in the case you mentioned. Under normal circumstances the clock would start on the ready when the down ended in bounds and the clock was then stopped to administer a foul. When it is possible a team fouls to run the clock the referee may hold the clock until the snap.

That's what I was wondering. Why would the penalty on the offense suddenly become worse because the defense needs to conserve time?

Clock is stopped on 2nd down with your initial timeout. In order to stop the clock again and gain the penalty yards, you have to initiate a timeout on the same down.




Well, how is it punishing them any worse when the clock was stopped prior to the play running? Since no loss of down, and the recognition of an illegal play run by the offense thanks to an infraction, why should the offense be entitled to those aspects of the result of the play when the penalty is accepted? Why not simply assess the penalty yardage, while keeping the down and clock status the same as it was at the end of the prior play? Especially when you're talking about a LOS penalty as opposed to a downfield or play action penalty.

This isn't some new revelation. Decline the penalty and the down counts. Your defense is now one down closer to getting off the field and getting the ball back.
It isn't the rules committee's job to just totally bail out your defense and save your TO's

Pretty basic timing rule. I don't know too many teams that commit an intentional IF.

And if they do the White Hat has the authority to stop the clock, else wise just keep playing your game.

Of course if we're just going all out, let's just make A automatically turn the ball over to B because they are trying to save their TO's .

There goes that pesky fundamental about no foul causes loss of the ball:rolleyes:

Without their foul, it would be 3rd down and the clock would continue running. You would have to use your time out anyway. Now with the foul you have a choice. If you can't afford to have any more time run off the clock, you decline the penalty and take the result of the play. If the yardage would be helpful (i.e. get your opponent out of FG range), then you may want to consider accepting the penalty.

You would like the NFL version of this. I'm not sure about all fouls, but the Cowboys committed a foul a couple weeks ago with just over a minute left and they were trying to run out the clock. The clocked stopped for penalty enforcement and did not start until the snap. Rather than run out most of the time, it gave Detroit plenty of time to run several plays and set up the winning TD.

I think this is what he wants.

You guys that don't get the problem this causes the defense baffle me. Yes, the NORMAL rule in this situation is for the clock to start on the ready.

However, consider this:

Defense calls time out and has 1 left, there are 30 seconds left in the game.
3rd and 2 on the A35. Offense commits a penalty (IF or Holding, or illegal downfield, or almost anything really) which helps them convert the first down. If the defense declines the penalty, the game is over - so they have to take it. But now the clock starts on the ready - so they have to use their last time out. Offense fails to convert on 3rd, but the clock runs out before they have to punt.

This is EXACTLY why the referee has the discretion to start the clock on the snap when the offensive foul aids them in running out the clock where they otherwise would not have been able to.

I understand the issue Longhorn but there is some advantage inherent to possessing the football. Conversely, it isn't really fair that a dead ball foul's penalty by B is assessed on 4th down after the determination for the LTG has been reached or not. I don't see ATL Bear squawling about that. B is perfectly able to try and strip the ball to gain possession. No where does it say that a team gets to keep its time outs in its vest pocket because it really, really wants to save them for its offense.

If you as the R feel that A was intentionally fouling to gain an advantage, then by all means, hold the clock. I just don't think that many teams nor their coaches, are that sharp.

What problem? That the defense only has one timeout left? That's not my problem.

I am a WH under NFHS (and occasionally under NCAA rules) and I would not even think about not starting the clock after a formation foul here. A dead ball foul? Perhaps. A DOG under NCAA rules? Certainly. A formation penalty? No chance. Unless I think they are fouling intentionally, which wouldn't even be an afterthought...

fify.

This is absolutely correct by current rule; but if you can't see that the rule is insane then I don't think that you're thinking it through. As I see it, when the offense gets the ball back with more than about three minutes left in the game, they should not be allowed to run out the clock without the aid of a first down or a B penalty. But all they have to do under the current rules is to be called for a penalty that isn't declined and they've done it.
Hence the entirely obvious response, run to the outside and hold on the edges. The teams are presumably balanced enough that the holding is enough to get them a gain on the play. The goal isn't to draw the penalty; it's to get the first down, but they can very safely push the rules to achieve it.
This might not be so bad (what I'd anticipate you'd reply), but considering there's practically no downside to changing the rule, I don't see why we continue to live with this. My rule proposal would be on accepted penalties inside of 4 minutes left in the half, the offended team has the option of starting on the ready or the snap (if the clock could otherwise have started on the snap). The parenthesized part may need work.

Too much thought for something that just doesn't happen that often.

After a second live ball foul, I would probably hold the clock until the snap. I'm aware of the perception. No need to codify yet another rule, although they've done so in the NFL.

4 minutes is too much if there was such a rule. In NCAA football, altered timing rules start at 2 minutes -- and that would be perfectly fine for a rule if there was need for one.

I always find it funny that running the clock is considered more important at other parts of the game. Early in the game, a team (with the clock running) commits a DOG (while not in a scrimmage kick formation in NCAA rules). We wind the clock. The offense can run OVER A MINUTE without running a play. Nobody blinks.

I don't think it hardly ever happens. Though I'll admit coaches don't take as much advantage of this as they ought to (largely because I don't think they understand whether the clock will run or not).

2 minutes is not enough for the modified rule. But you don't need 4. The problem is that you have the time before 3 plays. And that's 40 seconds a pop. If you can get under 2 minutes with first down (and no timeouts) then the game is over. (Since you can easily burn 3-4 seconds per play, it's really more around 2:15). So somewhere around 2:45 is when it needs to kick in to keep things "fair".

I agree that clock management doesn't matter much earlier in the game. :D

Under 2 minutes with a first down and no timeouts? Should be 3 knees and get on the bus at that point.

That's exactly his point.

Still don't see the problem. Quite frankly, I'm not sure why we alter time in the first place. 15 minute quarters, after all. Our games already take about 3 hours -- that's plenty of time for a team to win or lose a game.

Score more, early and often. Maintain possession, obtain possession.

We in this business are prone to say one play or one call didn't win or lose a ball game. Well here you go.

I don't ever see the Fed modifying timing rules to that extent in the remainder of my career. But if we are going to adjust, can I throw in "why not run the clock during the try? Between that and the subsequent intermission between the score and kickoff, we probably lose two real time minutes. In a 7 or 8 touchdown game, there's 15 minutes down the hatch. Don't even get me started on incomplete passes!

That's one NCAA change I'd like to see. Outside of 2 minutes, run the game clock after an incomplete pass is spotted. We already do it with runs out of bounds.

Yep, 2 minutes with a first down and no timeouts. 3 knees and the bus.
But, 3 minutes with a first down and no timeouts get a first down, a defensive penalty, or punt the ball.
(Whereas currently, it's get a first down, a defensive penalty, or commit a penalty or punt.)

For this reason, it would not be a difficult change to propose, justify, or implement.

And I'll tell ya -- our D3 games (with no TV) are already 2:45 to 3:05 every week. Cutting a few seconds here and there *would not hurt*.

Some of my high school games this year hit 2:30 and I think I keep them moving pretty good.

Exactly. My experience has been the same and my pace is far faster than most.

Not sure it's good for the game.

All depends on the style of play... spread offense + lots of pass attempts + unskilled quarterbacks and/or receivers = lots of incomplete passes = long games.

On the other hand, I had a high school playoff game this year where the first quarter took 18 minutes of real time. One pass attempt (incomplete, on 4th down), one touchdown. Other than that, the only time the clocked stopped was to move the chains for first down. Every run ended in bounds. Pace slowed a bit after that, but the game was still over in just over 2 hours, including a 20 minute halftime.