Anyone got a foul?

[bigjohn]

It is still illegal formation and you would call it if they didn't have 7 on the ball wouldn't you?


Never understood why this was part of Art 5
a. At the snap, at least seven A players shall be on their line of scrimmage. since the foul is illegal numbering and I think this should be illegal formation.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

It is still illegal formation and you would call it if they didn't have 7 on the ball wouldn't you?


Never understood why this was part of Art 5
a. At the snap, at least seven A players shall be on their line of scrimmage. since the foul is illegal numbering and I think this should be illegal formation.

This isn't an illegal formation. They have 7 on the line at the time of the snap. 5 interior lineman and the two outside receivers. I don't see any numbering issues either.

[bigjohn]

Rule 7
SECTION 2 FORMATION/POSITION, NUMBERING AND ACTION AT THE SNAP
ART. 1 . . . After the ball is marked ready for play, each player of A who participated
in the previous down and each substitute for A must have been,
momentarily, between the 9-yard marks, before the snap.

PENALTY: Illegal formation (Arts. 1, 2, 3) – (S19); illegal snap (Art. 4) – (S7-
19); illegal numbering (Art. 5) – (S19); illegal shift (Art. 6) – (S20); illegal
motion (Art. 7) – (S20); planned loose-ball infraction (Art. 8) – (S19) – 5 yards.

[Adam]

Still not going to get called unless B doesn't cover the receivers who never make it back inside the 9s.

Except maybe by overzealous new officials who don't know any better.

[asdf]

.....Or by coaches or ex-coaches who have never sat in a rules meeting or clinic and discussed this rule and why it was written.

For if they had, they would have been told countless times (as mentioned prior) if the player is covered defensively, and it's obvious that it has not created a confusion for the defense, then the spirit of this rule has not been violated and we move on.

In this play, the defender adjusts to the receiver lined up in the slot, the defender covers him and releases him when he reads the potential for a fake on the initial pitch. (he does his job and stays home momentarily)

Unfortunately, a couple of his teammates did not realize the potential for either pitch and ended up inside the hashes leaving the near side zone to the camera vacant. They over-committed to the original receiver and the rest is history.

[bigjohn]

I see this as a requirement (inside the 9 yard mark), no different than everyone must be set for 1 full second before someone goes into motion or the ball is snapped. I notice that one is let go a good bit as well!

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

I see this as a requirement (inside the 9 yard mark), no different than everyone must be set for 1 full second before someone goes into motion or the ball is snapped. I notice that one is let go a good bit as well!

REPLY: The key word in your reply is "I." The fact that you see it as a requirement is whole lot less weighty than the fact that probably 90-95% of officials have either figured it out on their own or have been told in no uncertain terms to ignore this if the defense matches up and there's no confusion or disadvantage to the defense. If my supervisor has told me that, and I see it happen, what do you think I'm going to do? Can you see me explaining to him that I had a flag because Bigjohn sees this as a requirement? Just like 'overlooking' a hold by the WR on the left side of the formation when the play is a sweep to the right, we officiate to advantage-disadvantage. Technically, the offense in the play fouled--no question. But 'technically' isn't the only way we're taught to officiate.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

Rule 7
SECTION 2 FORMATION/POSITION, NUMBERING AND ACTION AT THE SNAP
ART. 1 . . . After the ball is marked ready for play, each player of A who participated
in the previous down and each substitute for A must have been,
momentarily, between the 9-yard marks, before the snap.

PENALTY: Illegal formation (Arts. 1, 2, 3) – (S19); illegal snap (Art. 4) – (S7-
19); illegal numbering (Art. 5) – (S19); illegal shift (Art. 6) – (S20); illegal
motion (Art. 7) – (S20); planned loose-ball infraction (Art. 8) – (S19) – 5 yards.

If you want to pick this nit, than just blow it dead for an illegal substitution, certainly don't wait for this to be a live ball foul and wait for the score to happens to bring it back. As I said earlier he was really close to the numbers(9 yd mark).

[Adam]

Originally Posted by OKREF

If you want to pick this nit, than just blow it dead for an illegal substitution, certainly don't wait for this to be a live ball foul and wait for the score to happens to bring it back. As I said earlier he was really close to the numbers(9 yd mark).

Agreed.

[bigjohn]

If he didn't come from the sideline I may agree but it is borderline IP!

d. To use a player, replaced player, substitute, coach, athletic trainer or other
attendant in a substitution or pretended substitution to deceive opponents
at or immediately before the snap or free kick.

[bigjohn]

remember the nfhs defines immediately as 3-5 seconds!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

If he didn't come from the sideline I may agree but it is borderline IP!

d. To use a player, replaced player, substitute, coach, athletic trainer or other
attendant in a substitution or pretended substitution to deceive opponents
at or immediately before the snap or free kick.

No way this was an attempt to deceive.

My 8 year old son's knock knock jokes are more deceptive than that substitution was.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

If he didn't come from the sideline I may agree but it is borderline IP!

d. To use a player, replaced player, substitute, coach, athletic trainer or other
attendant in a substitution or pretended substitution to deceive opponents
at or immediately before the snap or free kick.

Please give an example of the player who was deceived in this play.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

If he didn't come from the sideline I may agree but it is borderline IP!

d. To use a player, replaced player, substitute, coach, athletic trainer or other
attendant in a substitution or pretended substitution to deceive opponents
at or immediately before the snap or free kick.

I hear you ... but if you're looking to THIS rule to make it illegal, you're ignoring both the "to deceive opponents" (which obviously they didn't - the defense covered him) and the "at or immediately before the snap" part (There was plenty of time between him coming to his position and the snap.