fumble, then penalty, then run
 

Situation:
LOS is A 35. A1 runs to the 50, where his FM gets ranked, he fumbles and A2 picks up ball and runs to B20 and is tackled. Bean bag and flag are dropped at the 50 for the FM and marking spot of fumble.

Penalty options?

I don't know what 'ranked' means in this context, but A can accept or decline the FM penalty.

The basic spot is the end of the related run, which is the 50. In general, including this play, fouls by the defense are enforced from the basic spot.

So A can accept the penalty, 1/10 at B-35, clock on the ready (assuming "tackled" = "tackled inbounds").

Or they can decline the penalty, 1/10 at B-20, clock on the ready.

A will decline the penalty for the Facemask, and accept the result of the play.

1st and 10 for A at the B-20.

A could also accept the penalty from the basic spot: the end of the related run at the 50 yard line, giving them first and 10 from the B-45 (for a 5-yard FM) or from the B-30 (for a 15-yard FM), but I don't see any sane Team A coach choosing that option.

All of these are assuming that, if we're operating under FED rules, the run and/or penalty enforcement places the ball beyond the line-to-gain, as there is no AFD provision for FM fouls in FED.

I don't know the rules (I'm a fan, not an official), but I thought the offense couldn't advance a fumble. Or does that only apply to NCAA or NFL?

That would be incorrect. If the ball is fumbled anyone can advance a fumble except on 4th down in the NCAA (probably the NFL but not sure). And in the NCAA only the player with the ball that fumbled is restricted to advancing the ball. But on any other down if there is a fumble the anyone can advance. I think you might be confusing what happens on a fumble out of bounds that is fumbled forward which has to be brought back tot he spot of the fumble in NCAA and NFL rules. High school rules anyone in any situation can recover a fumble and advance it in all situations.

Peace

Thank you for the clarification.

"Y"anked (as in 15 yard FM) not "ranked" ;-)..sorry about the typo. And yes we are talking NF. I agree with the enforcements.
I bring it up simply becasue we don't often use or have occassion to use that bean bag as a spot of enforcement and we might easily just make this a "tack on" penatly from the end of the last run, instead of the related run where the fumble and penalty occurred. Nice work guys!

Interesting ... almost every single time we bean bag, we do so because that's a possible spot of enforcement. I don't agree with the "not often" statement, and very much don't agree with the "might easily" part. At least ... not if you have done this very long.

NFL: Only on fourth down and after the two minute warning...only the person who fumbles the ball can recover and advance it. This also plays during any try after a score.

MD, just to clarify, we do use bean bags all the time: fumbles, end of kicks, momentum, etc. And, as you said, we do bean bag because it is a potential enforcement spot.

However, I have been officiating for 30 years and cannot remember more than a few times where we actualy needed to enforce from the bean bag spot on a fumble due to the way the play ended or when the penalty occurred. I have more often experienced bean bag spot enforcements in FC situations or scrimmage kick situations but seldom have I ever needed to use the bean bag spot from a fumble as an enforcemnt spot.

This is a great topic for me, I just worked a game with our Section Interpreter. Had a play with a B penalty then a fumble, I asked him about bagging the spot of the fumble and was told not to ??? His reasoning was spot foul penalty enforcement ??? And you can not recover the ball with dirty hands.

But that's only if the official withholding the bean bag is the same one who threw the flag, because how else would he know the foul was by the defense?

Last play of game with A trailing by 8 or less. The A coach would likely accept the penalty to give his team one more shot.

I find this incredibly hard to believe. Not bagging a fumble spot is on the evaluation form. And this spot might be used even if A recovers (the OP and the other thread as an example), especially if there's another foul (on either team) that you're not aware of.

The only situation I can think of where throwing a bean bag might be unneccessary would be on a fumble by A behind the LOS. In that case if there is a foul during the loose ball, the spot of the fumble is irrelevant, it is a previous spot enforcement since it is a loose ball play (or if A fouls behind the previous spot then it is a spot foul). However, I still throw the bag even behind the LOS as it looks good and removes doubt as to whether we saw it or not.

Fine, come up with an example where it actually makes sense to accept the penalty. Be that way.

:)

And, IMHO, there should ALWAYS be a bean bag on a fumble. Even if it can't be an enforcement spot.

However, there are two times where I won't throw my bean bag on a fumble:
1) As an Umpire, if the ball carrier fumbles inside the 5 yard line going in. (I don't know if the wing has the ball in the end zone already or not, and I don't want my bean bag on the ground when the H and L are signaling a touchdown).
2) As an U, H, or L, when we have a fumble-or-incomplete-pass situation by the quarterback. I let the R live and die with his call... if he has a fumble, he needs to bean-bag that spot.

No he doesn't. :)

Every single year this seems to come up in our assn for discussion. Apparently the folk at the state level want us to refrain from bagging a fumble behind the LOS, since it is meaningless with regard to enforcement. Despite the fact that the many (coaches, some players, some fans) know what a beanbag means, I don't see the problem with bagging one behind the LOS.

However, it is the state evaluators you have to please during those playoff assignments. And they have their way made up on how they want beanbags to be used. So, might as well do it their way all season so you are used to it come playoff time.

You don't drop a bean bag because there was a fumble. You drop a bean bag because you have a possible enforcement spot. Dropping a bean bag for a fumble 5 yards behind the LOS doesn't show everyone you are ruling fumble. It shows them you don't understand why the bean bag is used.

Another way this can get you into trouble is that fumble that gets recovered immediately at the same spot. You have the spot so the bean bag isn't really necessary. But if you rule fumble and don't drop the bean bag you'll get "you didn't drop your bean bag so you didn't rule fumble."

I don't see this as a big issue as long as you understand what you are doing and why you are doing it.

Absolutely. You and I know it is for an enforcement spot.

But the gist of your post makes a good point. We also beanbag the end of a scrimmage kick for PSK enforcement. In that case, we aren't broadcasting a fumble. And if people think beanbag == fumble, this could cause confusion.

I was the LJ with the penalty and fumble, I was told to flag the spot of the foul and continue to officiate. Finding this incredibly hard to believe is offensive to me. I do what I am told to do by my White Hat. I am sorry that we may not have the same evalutation form. I am looking for assistance not being called a person not to believe.

Bagging a muff
 

One of the things I cover in my pregame every week.
Bean Bag is for possible enforcements or violations.

My crew for some reason wants to bag muffed kicks. I always tell them no.

Last week 2nd half kickoff.
K kicks off short and before ball goes 10 yards or is touched by R or before R blocks K, K initiates contact, U has a flag down. Kick gets muffed by R80 and BJ threw a bean bag. Kick gets recovered by K. We're going to rekick after a 10 yard penalty. But R's coach wants to know why they can't decline the penalty and take the ball at the spot of first touching, because he thought that was why the bean bag was thrown.

So, this week's pregame will include another lecture on not bagging muffs.

Sorry you took offense. To be completely honest, though --- credibility is built (or lost) over time. It was certainly not my intent to offend you on purpose --- but I'm being honest when I say that the story is very very hard to buy. Let me just say this ... if it became known in any association I've worked on that a white hat was advising as you say he was advising, he would be corrected on that score in short order.

In defense of xtremeump, not all associations are quite so well disciplined. I have two WH's I've worked with that have quirks that they absolutely refuse to budge on.

The first flags A for illegal substitution every single time more than one player runs over to the sidelines to talk to a coach, claiming it is an unauthorized conference. He refuses to allow the players to go to the sidelines during an official's timeout. This despite numerous conversations during association meetings and small group discussions. When I initially challenged him on this (after getting blasted by him during a halftime discussion when I told B they could come over to the sidelines during an injury), I acquiesced because he was significantly more experienced than I was. And despite the long discussions, whenever this comes up in pre-games (I occasionally bring it up) his response is always "No while you are working on my crew."

The second absolutely refuses to accept flags for illegal use of the hands by B on a receiver. It is either a personal foul or nothing. I've brought this one up before on this board. This WH has made clear he will _always_ wave off such a flag.

And both of these guys continue to be WH's in our association. And always during discussion, they are corrected and keep silent. But come again Friday night, they ignore the entire discussion.

Not all associations are quite so well administered.

When did it become our responsibility for avoiding total misconceptions others, who have no business eavesdropping on conversations, or actions, intended solely for other game officials?

Bean bags are dropped to alert/remind ourselves, or our crew mates, of certain things, andy are not intended to communicate with coaches, spectators or announcers who may choose to involve themselves in communications not intended for them.

It's the same reason Referees don't stick their head into a huddle and suggest what plays may not be working.

Wow...I was thinking almost the exact same thing. And actually, since when would a coach's interpretation of an official's action be of any concern either way? They typically think there's a hold on every play when his team is on defense and he's 50+ yards away.
And for the record...our crew has always bagged a fumble anywhere. Maybe not the status quo everywhere, but....

Where in any NFHS Publications does it say to bag all fumbles ? I would bring it up if I knew where it is. Thanks

Try page 40 of the NFHS OFFICIALS MANUAL.

B. If there is a fumble, covering official should:
1. Mark yard line of fumble with bean bag if beyond line of scrimmage.

Thanks, is that it ?

What about the one time you would bean bag the spot of an interception?

Momentum- inside the B5.

You are correct sir.

Never.

Sorry, this is a nit I pick. My BJ bags the momentum spot, not the spot of the interception.

If we start talking about bagging an interception, somebody's going to start bagging interceptions.

Page 42 of NFHS Officials Manual.

Covering Official
E. If pass is intercepted inside defensive teams 5 yard line, and player making interception is downed in the end zone or ball goes out of bounds there:
1. Mark spot of interception with bean bag.
2. Be prepared to rule whether his/her momentum took him/her into the end zone.

Agree with you but I'll bite and nit pick further.....those 2 spots would be the same spot in this case, correct?

(You can't get the furthest point of momentum without possession of the INT.)

Oh sure, they're the same. Just as the spot of recovery and the end of a kick are often the same. But we bag the end of the kick, not the spot of recovery, since only one of them is an enforcement spot.

I'm not disputing that they're the same spot: I want to be precise in what I call it, since I want what I call it to link up with the reason for the bag. And I bag it because it is a momentum spot, not because it's a spot of interception.

So I would much rather have my crew understand momentum and the various ways the momentum exception comes into play than to be thinking about when to bag an interception.

I get the nit, but it's technically wrong. You're bagging the spot of the interception. This "momentum spot" is not a defined term. Can't just make up a term, then change a rule to use your term, and then call anyone not using your term wrong and then pick that nit... :)

It is no more wrong than 'spot of the interception', which is also not an explicitly defined term in NFHS.

And if you're going to allow implicit definitions (interception is defined in terms of catching an opponent's pass, and the catch has a spot), then 'momentum spot' is defined implicitly in 8-5-2 EXCEPTION:

"the ball belongs to the team in possession at the spot where the pass or fumble was intercepted or recovered or the kick was caught or recovered."

Exactly. You just made my point.

The rule says the spot of the interception. You've invented a term and replaced a word in a rule to suit your own fancy. And if you and your crew want to call it that, please, feel free...

But being bothered (calling it a nit that you pick) that others use the actual word from the actual rule? As Chris Carter would say ... "Come on, man"

Please show me where it says "spot of the interception." It does not. It says "the spot where the pass or fumble was intercepted or recovered or..."

And whatever you want to call the spot, the point is that we bag it because of momentum, not because of an interception. Calling the spot by the implicitly defined term 'spot of the interception' tends to obscure the reason for the bag.

That is not your point. ;)

Umm. Right here.

That's neither a rule, nor a definition.

I really didn't intend this microscopic point to generate so much discussion. Call it whatever you want, bag all the interceptions you want. I'm out.

You're right, it's the official NFHS mechanic. No one said to bag all interceptions, in fact I said what is the ONE time we do bag the interception.