IP by R during a punt

[w_sohl]

4th and 13 from the K25. K kicks and before R receives the ball, R32 blocks a K player and his helmet comes off. After the helmet comes off R32 blocks another K player at the R40. R88 returns the ball to the R45. What do we have?

A: IP, R ball, 1st and 10 from the R30
B: IP, R ball, 1st and 10 from the R25
C: IP, K ball, 1st and 10 from the K40
D: Nothing, R32 didn't realize his helmet came off.

[BktBallRef]

B: IP, R ball, 1st and 10 from the R25

[w_sohl]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

B: IP, R ball, 1st and 10 from the R25

That is correct for original scenario, I typed it wrong. It has been corrected to what I meant.

[OKREF]

I would say B. the helmet came off prior to possession, however, that in itself isn't a penalty, the penalty didn't happen until after the end of the kick. Isn't this a PSK? The penalty should be enforced from the end of the return.

[IAUMP]

OKREF

Since we don't know if the IP was before or after the end of the kick we can not say if PSK applies.

If the IP happened before the end of the kick the PSK applies and you would enforce from the end of the kick, which we do not know.

If the IP happened after the end of the kick, then PSK does not apply, and you would use the all but 1 enforcement. The basic spot would be the end of the kick. The foul was on R behind the basic spot. Therefore you would enforce the 15 yds from the spot of the foul. 1/10 R at the R25.

[MD Longhorn]

When was the block by the illegally participating player, in relation to the moment R possessed the ball?

[HLin NC]

IP does not apply to PSK, its succeeding spot.

[maven]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

IP does not apply to PSK, it's succeeding spot.

Reference?

Per 2-16-2h, IP cannot be a PSK foul.

Per 10-4-5, IP is not among the fouls listed for succeeding spot enforcement.

Per 9-6-4g, IP of this type is a live-ball, basic spot foul.

The basic spot during when a foul occurs during a kick when not PSK is the previous spot.

What have I missed?

[HLin NC]

Reference?

Beats the crap out of me, I think I'm mixing my threads up
I've seen this "helmet flies, comes, levitates off" til I'm goofy.

[maven]

Originally Posted by w_sohl

4th and 13 from the K25. K kicks and before R receives the ball, R32 blocks a K player and his helmet comes off. After the helmet comes off R32 blocks another K player at the R40. R88 returns the ball to the R45. What do we have?

A: IP, R ball, 1st and 10 from the R30
B: IP, R ball, 1st and 10 from the R25
C: IP, K ball, 1st and 10 from the K40
D: Nothing, R32 didn't realize his helmet came off.

The corrected part of your play doesn't address the issue. The helmet coming off is not a foul; the next block is.

If the helmet-less player blocks during the kick, it's previous spot enforcement, which would make C the correct answer.

If the helmet-less player blocks during the return, the basic spot is the end of the run (R45), and the foul by the offense was committed at the R40. Under ABO, we'd enforce from the spot of the foul, which would make B the correct answer.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by IAUMP

OKREF

Since we don't know if the IP was before or after the end of the kick we can not say if PSK applies.

If the IP happened before the end of the kick the PSK applies and you would enforce from the end of the kick, which we do not know.

If the IP happened after the end of the kick, then PSK does not apply, and you would use the all but 1 enforcement. The basic spot would be the end of the kick. The foul was on R behind the basic spot. Therefore you would enforce the 15 yds from the spot of the foul. 1/10 R at the R25.

The way I read the opening post, the helmet came off during the kick, prior to R possessing the ball. No infraction has occurred yet. I read the rest as the IP came after R possessed the ball.

[w_sohl]

The point was that all of that happened before R possesed the ball. Since IP is not a PSK foul, K will retain possession because the penalty moves them past the line to gain. So C is the intended answer.

PSK also does not apply during OT according to the OT procedures.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by w_sohl

The point was that all of that happened before R possesed the ball. Since IP is not a PSK foul, K will retain possession because the penalty moves them past the line to gain. So C is the intended answer.

PSK also does not apply during OT according to the OT procedures.

Correct. If it happens prior to The change of possession, it is penalized from the previous spot.

C is correct.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by maven

If the helmet-less player blocks during the return, the basic spot is the end of the run (R45), and the foul by the offense was committed at the R40. Under ABO, we'd enforce from the spot of the foul, which would make B the correct answer.

Correct, which is what he originally posted.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by w_sohl

The point was that all of that happened before R possesed the ball. Since IP is not a PSK foul, K will retain possession because the penalty moves them past the line to gain. So C is the intended answer.

PSK also does not apply during OT according to the OT procedures.

If that was the point, it would have helped to actually say that it all happened prior to possession. Just sayin'.