You've probably been the most reasonable person on this thread, but what I'm saying is true. Officials mistakes prevented Wisconsin from attempting a game-winning field goal. That's clear, in black and white.

I never said no such craziness. :rolleyes:

You put the ball on the ground, players go after the ball. You think ASU did not think for a few seconds that was a loose ball? And who caused that? The QB who just put the ball on the ground that is who. Players do not set the ball on the ground. When have we ever done that as officials? Players know this if they watch any football. It might not matter a whole lot, but that was not necessarily the spot where the ball would be placed. He should have at least handed the ball to the Referee (not the best person) or the Umpire and then no one would have thought the ball was a fumble. And if ASU prevented such action to get the ball in play now you have some reasonable recourse. Not everyone hears a whistle the same way either. We have enough plays where even when whistles are blown players do not stop immediately and we do not penalize them for further actions. If teams that run these Oregon style offenses on regular plays do this, so could this player.

All I am saying is do not cause the confusion. You want the ball back in play, help the officials do just that. And it was a also a case of over coaching. Why is getting the ball to the middle so valuable? They miss FGs all the time in the NFL and the hashes are even closer to the middle.

I know this is an officiating site, but I think the team should be blamed for what they did. And just as I thought the officials will likely still be working and this will be a footnote in the season.

Peace

What was the remedy? It is so black and white as you say, give me the rule and the section this situation says for the officials to do something. Saying they owe the team an explanation is not in the rules.

I would wait, but if you have not given an answer yet, you are not going to give one anytime soon.

Peace

Delay of game.

The reason I ask, is that is has been questioned whether or not the Wisconsin QB's knee was actually down before he placed the ball on the field. After which the ASU player fell on the ball. This would make it a possession question and not a clock issue, and that would be subject to a replay review.

I'm not saying that it should have been reviewed. What I am saying is if they are going to downgrade the deep wings and back judge for this play, even though they are not directly involved, will the conference also look at the replay official for his inaction?

Just so you know, it has to be deliberate action to make that call, not confusion. And I bet you have never seen a Delay of Game penalty on a defensive team near the end of the game. You cannot just call this when there is confusion of the ball being loose.

Also a delay of game call would have been a penalty which included yardage and the clock would have started on the snap. Very severe and would have caused ASU fans going nuts, which is something you seem to not want to consider as well. Wisconsin does not have the right to win any game anymore then the other team.

And the Wisconsin QB never had a since of urgency until time was about to run out. He assumed everyone knew what he was doing or wanted. You know what they say when you assume?

Peace

It wasn't the ASU player lying on the ball that prevented quicker spotting of the ball. It was the lack of urgency by the U in finding the ball to get it spotted. This is a foul for DOG if the U is trying to get the ball and the player is not giving it to him. That's why I don't think you can fairly penalize ASU in this situation. The ASU player gave it up as soon as the U asked him. If the U felt the ASU player was intentionally hiding the ball so he couldn't find it then you may have an argument.

This was just a cluster started when the Wisconsin QB made his own mistake in judgment. Nobody is free of criticism and nobody is guilty of a catastrophic error. All parties use this as an opportunity to learn how to address it better next time and move on. It appears the officials are being addressed with sanctions through the league and it's none of our business that those sanctions are. The people who need to know are aware of what they are.

It is not a replay issue because it was not a timing error. Wisconsin ran a play and the clock continues. You cannot go to replay just because you want to. There are very specific situations where replay can get involved and this is not one of them.

And unless there is something I am missing, I doubt seriously the deep wings or BJ were penalized. As I said before this sounds like the crew was mentioned but no comment was made about what specifics were done. If they suspended the crew, I think that would have been mentioned. I think this was about the Referee and the Umpire mostly.

Peace

So ... you think the replay official should be in trouble for not reviewing the knee-touch? When the replay official had exactly 10 seconds to review it? And when, upon further review, the knee DID touch and the ruling was correct?

I don't follow your logic at all.

Where the umpire failed, in my opinion, was when R was signalling him that the play was over and the QB was down - and the umpire, knowing the game situation, needed to come up, tell the player to get off the ball, and then either spot the ball or flag the kid for staying on the ball. Instead, he was entertaining a conversation with another defensive lineman.

You're absolutely right that he could not call DOG given what actually happened. But it was imperative on him to get up there and tell the other guy to get off the ball. If the kid then gets off the ball, he needs to spot it and get out of the way. If he doesn't after being instructed to do so - we have DOG (it then becomes deliberate, and not confusion).

He then further compounds his error by telling the snapper to stay off the ball, with no apparent reason for doing so since there was no substitution.

This situation never occurs if not for the action of the Wisconsin QB. I have watched the clip about 10 times and I still haven't seen his knee touch the ground, he just lays the ball on the ground, which leads to the ASU player thinking it is a fumble. He should have clearly taken a knee. It really looks like a fumble to me. The umpire is waiting over the ball for the Referee to mark the ball ready for play. Unfortunate ending to a game.

There is a picture in this thread that shows a knee touched the ground. And simulating taking a knee also kills the play. But putting the ball on the ground when it was unclear if he went down caused the confusion. If he holds onto the ball and hands it to the umpire, none of this is at issue IMO.

Peace

There is no ready for play call by the R in college in this situation. The play clock starts when the previous play ends. It is ready for play when the U spots is backs out. He was obviously waiting for something but it definitely wasn't waiting for a RFP signal from the R.

No, I'm not saying that at all. I definitely don't think the replay official should be in trouble. I'm just asking the question, will the conference(s) look at this?

I agree.

The video I watched (the one from page 1), you can clearly hear a whistle being blown when he QB puts the ball down. Can't tell who blew it, nor can you see anyone with their hand up, but it is a very clear, loud whistle so someone had them down.

Pac-12 Conference reprimands officials from Arizona State-Wisconsin game - ESPN

News to me. When you stand up holding the ball, players tend to think it's still live. Why is it any clearer than leaving the ball on the ground, which is what officials have asked players to do since 1905?

Arizona State, Wisconsin review bizarre ending

Quote from the Wisconsin QB

That's not what he suggested...he said the QB, after taking a knee, should have handed the ball to the nearest official, instead of spotting it himself...which the QB even admitted himself.

They didn't have to play football at all, for that matter.

They had a couple downs to use. They had enough time, given anything close to normal officiating. Centering the ball is the appropriate thing to do. You're going to want to leave as close to 0 as you can get on the clock after your kick succeeds, and you want to maximize the angle for the kick to maximize the chance of its success.

Then why doesn't 3-3-2(e)8 apply?
I tell my players every practice session to do exactly that. You hear the whistle, you stop what you're doing and leave the ball on the ground.

If he didn't kneel or simulate kneeling, why is that any less confusing? "Look out, he's passing -- to the umpire!" The ball is either recognized as dead or not. If it's not, it doesn't matter how he gets rid of it. Most balls are not dead on touching an official.

Yes if there are 5 minutes left in the 3rd quarter. If there are 15 seconds left at the of the play you get it as quickly as possible to the nearest official so they can get it set. You risking several different things happening to the ball if you don't. This play is a great example of what can happen if you don't do this. There is fault in the officials as well, but the QB is definitely a key contributor.

Why don't you explain this one to me, because I am still trying to figure out what this has to do with the situation? The clock was not stopped.

You obviously did not actually read what I said. Players that run no-huddle or speed up offenses often teach their players to hand the officials the ball, so they can get the ball to the line and run a play quickly. If you want to tell your players to do that in the middle of the game that is fine with me. But when you are in hurry up, you will slow down things if you tell them to do that.

Peace

I know it's not what he suggested, but it's what I coach. I'm not having my players look around for an official. It's the official's job to get the ball. I've also never heard an official ask for such service from a player, I just hear them tell them to get off the ball, leave the ball, etc. Having the players deliver the ball to them or wait there for them to come pick it up delays the game, at least insofar as it affects my players. If they attempt to throw the ball to an official, the delay can be even greater.

As it appears from the photos, the player in this case spotted the ball perfectly. He even left the laces up for his snapper!

What players do you know when the ball is on the ground they do not try to cover it? That happens a lot even when there has not been a fumble ruled on a play. It happens when it is the first play of the game if on a close catch and the ball is on the ground, players go after the ball not waiting for an official to announce it is a fumble. Now you have put a ball on the ground when you need ever second. And if he handed the official the football, then it would be clear to the officials if the ASU players tried to interfere with the ball. What the QB did helped cause confusion and delay to their cause.

And this is why the QB said what he did to the media (APG quote). He knows that he did not help the situation. If he thinks the other team is going to play nice so that they can run a play, he obviously learned that is not the case.

Peace

I do not know about you, but I probably work more games then you coach at both the college ranks and the high school ranks. At the college level we are used to the football being thrown to us by even those that are not as accurate with their tosses. At the high school level we do not have ball boys, so that is how we often get the ball back to our umpire. Rarely have a problem. And once again, it was to Wisconsin's advantage to give the official the ball themselves. Instead they allowed confusion and you see what happened. They lost.

You can point fingers all day long, but I tend to look at what I could have done instead of saying why someone else was at fault. I can only control what I do. I can never control what others do.

Peace

I know, that's the problem. You or someone upthread said players of both teams contributed to delaying the RFP. If that's the case, this provision said the game clock is supposed to be stopped and then started again on the ref's signal.
If the player has the ball in his hands close to the dead ball spot, how can putting the ball on the ground slow things down? The official spotting the ball is going to have to come to the dead ball spot and bend down anyway. But meanwhile the player could be getting into position rather than looking or waiting for the official.

It's been reported upthread that a whistle sounded. This is very interesting: an official saying players should play past the whistle.

I have blamed Wisconsin. I did not blame ASU. ASU players were doing what I expected them to do.

Did the officials use his spot? Obviously not, so give the ball to the person that will spot the ball based on the forward progress the officials have determined. How often do you see a player put the ball forward when they have been ruled down? How often do the officials just leave the ball where the player put the ball down? Never, so thanks for playing. ;)

Peace

Again, I am sure I officiate more football games in a year then you coach. And it is not uncommon for players to play despite the whistle being blown. I guess you have players in your games just stop the minute they hear the whistle whether it is a block or even a tackle. You should have seen my game Friday and how many times a whistle was blown and someone how we had to use our voice or blow the whistle as blocks and players were still moving after the whistle. I guess that never happens in any game you have ever been involved in.

Peace

That's your team...coach them as you see fit. Sure it's the official's job to get the ball, but the team that hands it to the official makes the job quicker and easier for the official. If you feel your team doesn't have the ability to quickly find the nearest official, then by all means tell them to just drop the ball.

I can't tell that from the stills.
And you're saying it takes more time to move the ball from one position on the ground to a nearby position than it does to take it from some other place to that position?
In this case they could have. What's the U have to do, touch the ball with his hand to make it official?

At the NCAA and NFL level as it relates to a fumble vs ball dead or a backward pass vs a forward pass? Yes, they should still attempt to recover the ball...if the QB hadn't had put his knee down, then by the ASU getting on the top of the ball with a clear recovery, they would have gotten the ball.

It happens all the time, so should I tell them to do so freely? "The officials and your opponents expect you to continue playing after the ball is dead."

I thought the officials were supposed to administer the game, not conform their procedures to what the players do.

Anyway, you do not see a scramble by these players for the ball. Look at the stills, and you can see most of the players of team B standing and waiting for the ball to be RFP. There are just a couple of players ostensibly trying to play the ball, and according to the written acc't, they did so after the U moved into the vicinity.

It is obvious that you do not understand or you do not want to understand. Usually only one officials blows the whistle. We do not echo whistles. So if a whistle is at one end of the field, it is likely players for a very brief time do not hear the whistle. So if they are engaged in a block away from the ball, they might continue to block or be engaged. It does not mean they are doing anything cheap, but that is a reality. And often as a Back Judge or Deep Wing we have to communicate to players to stop verbally.

Again, like many things we talk about here, that is something you probably are not aware of as a coach. I know in the middle I can speak to players and coaches have no idea what I have said to them. And some players play on the edge of that whistle to where it could be seen as a foul or close to it.

Peace

Why are you bringing up situations remote from the main action, when that's not what happened here?

Because the players from ASU reacted as they usually do with a ball on the ground in front of them. That is why the Wisconsin player should not just put the ball down on the ground.

Peace

But they were not remote from the whistle.

I can tell you are a coach. You think there is this magical thing that happens with a whistle.

Peace

I'm still trying to figure out what answer you are looking for. The officials mishandled the play, the official are being disciplined over the incident. You still haven't said how you discuss this situation in your pre-game.

The officials screwed up. Now, what do you to happen? Do you think someone in this forum has the power to make you happy over what happened?

So YOU are the coach that keeps doing that. I spend an awful lot of time telling kids to cut that crap out.

You might as well have typed, "I don't know what I'm talking about, please ignore me."

Have you coached ONE game in the NCAA? Based on this post, no.

Did anyone look at the video and stills?
 

I know this is probably old by now, it's hard to see if he takes a knee, but the endzone shot, slowed down, clearly shows him taking a knee. The fact that the officials blew the play dead acknowledges that--you can hear them. The umpire should have been more urgent spotting the ball. Every umpire knows you speed up a bit under 2 minutes.

The Pac-12 admitted it was wrong. The Big Ten office confirmed it. The officials had a crazy situation and messed up. It happens. But, it should make all of us better next Saturday when something crazy happens to us.

The biggest mistake I see the umpire making is holding up the Wisconsin team from coming to the ball. There was no reason for him to do that based on the mechanics by college umpires at that level in a meeting we had tonight. I am not so sure he even knew why the ASU players were on the ball, nor am I sure he knew how the ball was dead. We tell umpires to not blow their whistle for a reason. I think the Referee could have helped the umpire out by communicating better so that the umpire knew what to do next. Either the Referee or maybe the HL were the only ones that knew how the ball was dead.

And one thing I can almost assure everyone, there will not be a player putting the ball on the ground anytime soon in that situation. This could have happened to any of us and no matter what we would have done someone would have claimed they were screwed. Because if you stop the clock for any reason, then ASU will make the same claim all over the media and it would not matter what the rule is that applies. If you think that is not true, remember the BYU at Washington game where a TD was scored and the QB that scored the TD he flipped the ball high in the air. And what did we do here, rip the officials for applying the clearly stated rule. Either way we cannot win. ;)

Peace