Tobacco
 

We had a L last night tell our whitehat that he suspected an assistant coach was chewing tobacco. After the game the entire crew talked to the head coach and relayed the L's suspicions. In the course of that conversation, the head coach said that the assistant had been warned before and that he would probably fire him. That looks like confirmation of what the L suspected. I told the WH to report the suspicion to the state and include the coach's comments as well as report it to the AD.

IMO, this isn't anything we have any business being involved in. Whether a man chooses to use tobacco or not is his decision. Whether he's allowed to use it around students is an issue for his employer, not an official in a football game.

Well it is illegal to use so I am not totally in agreement with that part. His employment is not our issue, but if he is using it on a field or in a sport that does not allow it, that is our business. Not my business to go looking for, but if we notice it yes we can and have the right to penalize such action. I just remember when NCAA baseball made it clear if it was used the coach would be ejected if anyone on the team did so. And also I am sure some states have asked their officials to enforce or report these things as well. It is illegal in our state for example to even use tobacco products on any school campus, forget what the rules say to do. An adult that is a coach should know better.

Peace

ART. 1 . . . No coach, substitute, athletic trainer or other team attendant shall
act in an unsportsmanlike manner once the game officials assume authority for
the contest. Examples are, but not limited to:



j. Using tobacco or smokeless tobacco.
k. Being outside the team box, but not on the field. (See 9-8-3)
l. A substitute leaving the team box during a fight.


So pick and choose the ones you enforce??

I'm well aware of what the rule is. What I'm saying is that IMO it should not be a game rule.

Thank you for making my point. It has nothing to do with the game of football or any other game. It's a school issue, not a game issue.

Weapons are not allowed on school campuses. Should that be a game rule as well? Do we need the frisk everybody on the sideline?

Where did I say I wouldn't enforce it? I said IMO this is not something an official should have to deal with. It should not be a rule.

It's not unsportsmanlike to put a dip of snuff inside your front lip. I don't do it nor advocate it but if you do, that's your business and the business of your employer.

BTW John, you might not have noticed but K and J are safety rules, not moral or ethical issues as is whether one chooses to use tobacco or not. You're a coach. If you have a fellow coach who uses tobacco, you're the one who should be up his a$$ about it, not me.

It is ridiculous. It's not as if it gives any tactical advantage or is a safety issue, and it's not likely to arouse ill feeling in others. It's a whole new category of rulesmaking as concerns football.

Why did the "entire crew" feel the need to meet with a HC AFTER a game about an AC using dip?

I understand the concern. I understand telling the HC. I know it's against the rules. But that seems a bit overkill to me. In these parts, we're running/trotting to the get away car. If the HC wasn't told or the AC wasn't flagged during the game, I think that is something R can report later.

I'm simply saying the rule should be enforced appropriately if seen. I would make the coach aware what I suspected just like I would with other preventative thing if it was not obvious.

And I think your weapon point is a straw man argument. We are not talking about weapons, we are talking about tobacco that is outlawed by rule.

I know you live around Tobacco Road, but let us not be ridiculous. :D

Peace

Towel color and other uniform adornments are not safety issue or really have an effect on the game!

Thanks for making my point again. Both are outlawed on campus. Neither should be something a game official has to deal with.

Think whatever you want to. It's the same principle.

Nor are they something officials should have to deal with.

All I am saying Tony is that there is a rule in place. I have no problem with how the crew handled this unless there was some directive to handle it differently. Not sure what point you are trying to make? This is mostly a local issue that if happened in my area I would see as handled properly. I do agree the entire crew did not need to be there, but then again that might have been one of those situations where the crew left together and the coach saw them all and that is when it was addressed.

Peace

9-8-1j Any other rules you choose to ignore?

That's true, and those issues are nuts & recent too. Why can't the rules makers just pay att'n to the game?

Where the hell did I say I ignore the rule?

I said that IMO it should not be a game rule. We have no business telling a grown man he cannot use tobacco. If it's an issue to use it around kids, then that's an issue for his employer, not for a football official.

I've been very clear on my point. But I'll try to explain it to you again.

I do not think it should be a rule.

I actually had to eject a pitcher from an 18U baseball game over the summer... he had a can of chew in his back pocket while he was pitching. No way I could ignore that.

Personally, I think the "alert the head coach of suspicions, report to the state office after the game" route is probably the best one to take in this situation... unless the AC made it such that I had no choice but to address the issue. (ie: spitting tobacco juice where I could see him or actually putting a dip in his mouth in front of me).

I got that much out of your statement. Not sure I totally disagree with you. But someone has determined it is illegal to the rules and in some cases the law. And at least on one front we are asked to enforce one of those situations. And I do not have the right to write a ticket to someone that violates the state law. ;)

Peace

What world do you live in, Pollyanna?

The only reason those rules are in the book is because someone, somewhere, at some time was having enough of a problem that they felt a rule was needed to address them.

It's not just football, this a NFHS all-sport rule.

A "problem"? What "problem"? In the case of tobacco products, it is inconceivable that there could've been a single problem that happened to be caused by each of cigarets, cigars, wet and dry snuff. The products are used so differently that any problem one of them might've caused would not have been caused by others, and yet not caused by similar non-tobacco products.

The problem being that coaches freely use chewing tobacco around their players and the NFHS does not want coaches influencing players in this manner. I know it was common with our coaches when I played and many saw it as tacit approval since the coaches did it.

Unduly celebrating in the end zone is neither a tactical advantage nor a safety issue yet we are charged with stopping it.

I live and grew up in Appalachia. I remember when tobacco reps came to the field house on campus and dropped off boxes of chaw at the coaches office. As student trainer-manager, I usually got a box for myself.
The student smoke hole was in the drive between the gym lobby and the fieldhouse.

It is a new day. I have one school where I know good and well one of the AC's usually has a dip in. I just tell him before the game I don't need to see it. Beyond that, to me it's a personnel issue, not a game officiating issue.

It's thought to engender USC by opponents.

But there are probably as many or more people who would disapprove of coaches displaying other vices, such as smoking cannabis or drinking liquor or looking at porn in front of their players, yet there's no Fed rule about doing those. I notice there's not even a Fed rule about nicotine gum (or non-nicotine gum), only tobacco.

We had a similar issue in baseball near where I live. A coach did not have his contract renewed after numerous complaints about his use of chew during games. The final game of the season ended, and as the umpire was leaving the field, he witnessed the coach put some of the chew (or suspected chew) in his mouth. Since the game was over he did not eject the coach, but he did file a report with the state association (which also gets back to the AD). This was one of the reasons his contracted was not renewed.

You guys all are forgetting the most important thing here. The football field, basketball court, baseball diamond or whatever surface your sport is played on isn't just an extra-curricular site. It is an extension of the classroom and at the high school level we as officials are educators too. It is our responsibility to enforce sportsmanship and other rules. As an educator you would not allow any sort of tobacco in your classroom and that is what the football field is, a classroom.

And for those of you that say this isn't a safety rule, try checking this out.

https://www.google.com/search?q=pict...GoPmqQHljoDICQ

I get that "extension" speech quite a bit concerning coaches behavior too. How many d@#n, $#!t'Z, #3!!'s do you flag in your extended classroom on Friday night?

Much like a teacher would do, I warn when it is appropriate. I have flagged for it too. They usually stop after my warning or they are much more strategic when doing it.

I don't think the question is so much why it's illegal, but why this. Why not explicitly prohibit other things that are forbidden during the classroom.

MD was joking in the other thread, but why not prohibit knives, for example?

Further, why make it a flagrant offense?

Personally, I don't have a problem with the rule as it is, but I do wonder why.

How about you just paddle the coach at halftime or suspend him for a quarter!

You know ... we are all (all but 1) officials here. It should be ok for a guy who's been around here a while, proven he is not a troll, etc - to mention that he thinks a particular rule should not be a rule, without being attacked and asked, "what other rules are you going to ignore". Good grief, people.

How about just giving the coach a choice.....

Swallow it or ejection ..........

You could get killed driving to or from the game, too. It just seems a far-fetched cx.

And no, I don't think it's an extension of the classroom. Extramural sports are entertainment, a way to blow off steam that happens to be connected to schools for arbitrary reasons. They may get out of phys. ed. for a term by playing a sport, but that's about as far as the cx to instruction goes.

That is a matter of opinion, Robert. Most coaches would say you arre wrong about that.

Most coaches have an inflated idea of their importance. But in that, they're no different from others in "education".

Maybe, in theory, but if you start applying the same behavior standards on the field that they employ in the classroom, they'd have a cow.

The concept holds true, but it's not exactly the same.

I'm not forgetting anything. I simply don't agree with your analogy.

The field or court is an extension of the classroom for the student-athletes. On that, we agree.

But if it's an extension for the coaches then that's where administrators come in. They should insure that their coaches don't chew, spit or smoke in the classroom, on the field or the court. It has nothing to do with the rules of the game.

IMO you need to stop looking for trouble on the sideline and focus on the game and player safety.

At least the officials didn't get involved in this one. The article didn't make clear whether he was a player.

That's a coach's answer. Clearly you shouldn't be shaking down the sideline for tobacco but sometimes it is something that gets thrown in OUR lap.

Are you a coach?

Next thing you'll do is keep my nose out of the dugout when the manager is screaming at me. Oh, wait. Wrong sport.

Same answer I get when I enforce the restricted area. Seems nobody cares about official and/or coaches safety.

Tell the rules committee, then. Those coaches seem to think we do need to enforce this.

Other than that...
What Welpe said.

Amen. Should it any different if somebody was drunk? Lord knows I've had my share of tipsy chain crew guys...

Nobody "looks for trouble". These rules are there for us to use when, for example, we get sprayed by an angry coach.

You don't need the tobacco rule for this, IMO.

Most of us agree with you, especially wrt the rules we're discussing here.

But we didn't write the rule that makes us look for trouble on the sideline.

So the AC has to spit juice on you to draw a flag?? Just asking how far you let it go??
:)

The purpose of the rule? Adults in a learning environment such as a school setting, should be exhibiting good health practices. If we don't allow it in the school building then we should not allow it in the athletic environment. The NFHS believes in this concept, thus the rule. If you think it is none of our business as officials then you should consider that we are working with young people in an educational setting. This is not the NFL. And we are all in this together, officials, coaches, parents, trainers, administrators and players.

The reason that the entire crew was with the coach was because it happened to be that the crew and the coach were close to each other walking off the field. The crew suspected a problem and raised the issue with the head coach, who apparently was aware of prior behavior by this assistant coach. What happened with that coach, we don't know. I think the situation was handled appropriately.

Nobody is saying not to flag it. Some are saying that it's absurd that we have to police this though.

I think he was responding to CT1's suggestion that the rule is there so we can flag a coach who sprays us with tobacco spit.

If that were the case, they wouldn't allow football at all! Seriously, far more people are injured playing football than chewing tobacco or using wet snuff. People banging into other people is definitely a bad health practice.

I mean seriously, here you have someone using tobacco in a way that hardly exhibits it at all, and in the same general area you have a crowd of people who are definitely being exhibited banging into each other? It hardly compares!

And you're saying it's a "learning environment" just because it's on the school's real estate and/or involves students at a particular school. It really has nothing to do with learning per se. The whole thing is stretched beyond belief in your statement.

Forgive me but I have never known many football players from high school to have very serious injuries as a whole. People die of Cancer all the time in this country and tobacco products are one of the biggest reasons for that disease. I guess we better stop playing soccer, because girls get more concussions playing that sport then any other sport. Cheerleading has more serious injuries then just about any other activity across the board. All these activities take place in schools. Only the chess or debate teams have no risk of serious injury. And I am sure if a light falls from the ceiling and hits someone in the head in those activities somewhere. I would not compare outlawing a drug that is known to be linked to a disease to a sport kids might play or not play and most come out fine. I played football and had no serious injuries as a result. I was fortunate not to have any playing 3 sports at some point in varsity, but that is a bad analogy on your part to not understand why things are outlawed.

Peace

I've never been in such complete agreement with you, Jeff.

Yes, we are. That's why administrators should be the ones insuring that their employees are not using tobacco products around students.

There's no NFHS football rule regarding the use of alcohol by a coach who is on the sideline. Why should we flag a coach for dip in his front lip but not alcohol on his breath or for being high? Why isn't there a rule against all the other things a coach could use that would set a poor example before young impressionable minds? Why? Because it's expected that the school has policies that will address this. Tobacco should be no different. Instead, it's an exception to everything else that a coach should not be using on the sideline.

There is an easy answer for that. One has been openly used in sporting situations and the other have not been. I have never (and I doubt you have ever) seen anyone drink a beer on the sideline of any sporting event. I have seen coaches back when I played use dip all the time. And in some cases players used those things.

And what should be or what shouldn't be are two different things. Those are the rules.

Peace

Agreed. My first thought is that chewing tobacco has been part of the culture of outdoor sports forever; especially baseball. It's long been considered acceptable in that environment. That said, I still find it curious.

My head is spinning.

Statistics would show more injuries per participant for football than for chewing tobacco; I don't think it'd even be close, in fact. And yeah, even more for cheerleading. Sports are linked to injuries like drugs are; if you wanted to compare them for safety stats, and think that is the reason they're outlawed, then you'd wind up wondering!

OK, I Googled, taking the 1st appropriate hits that came up for terms I put in. 2001-6 in the USA...

football (touch & tackle combined): 21.92 injuries per 1,000 participants per year
moist snuff + chewing tobacco: 30.4 excess mouth or throat cancers per 100,000 users/yr.

LISTSERV 15.5 - SCOUTS-L Archives
Tobacco Truth: I’m a Smokeless Tobacco User – Will I Get Mouth Cancer?

:confused:
Are we in different worlds?

He means HS sportting event.

And if I smelled alcohol on a coaches breath I would tell the head coach that that assistant has to go.

That is all wonderful, but what about smoking tobacco? After all all of it is outlawed or illegal on a school property. And if it is used on campus it is illegal in many places period by the law, not by officials.

Yes, if you think on this site I am talking about anything other then high school sports. And even in college sports it is not allowed to have tobacco on campus or in a building.

But hey, keep hope alive if you think the rule is going to change anytime soon. And at the NCAA level it is also been outlawed to use such things by players and participants. And I have been to enough college sporting events for college or NCAA and they will not even sell alcohol in the building. Been to the Big Ten Tournament in both the Indianapolis and Chicago and they would not sell alcohol in the confines of the United Center and Conseco Fieldhouse. I went to the Final Four in Atlanta this spring and they did not sell alcohol there either. These things are not accepted other then pro sports and they cannot even use those things in many pro sports.

Peace

Even so. But then, I lived thru the era of the 18 YO drinking age and when beer companies advertised on our clothes. We do still drink after youth games, the cooler being ready on the sideline.

Hey, what about smoking crack? The discussion was about chewing, wasn't it?
Probably they'll allow pot smoking first, which probably won't be long.

Some of us even lived through an era where black people had to sit in the back of the bus, but hey, if we used to do it, it must not be all that bad.

Yeah, I did it, but we can't always go on saying well when I was younger or during my era. Times change, research proves statistics. If you want your kids to see an adult that they look up to with smokeless tobacco, by all means show your kids. I don't.

You don't have to openly use it. All you have to do is smell it on their breath to know they've been drinking. You don't think kids can smell alcohol on someone's breath? Of course they can.

Neither is acceptable around kids and neither should have to be enforced by game officials.

I've said my piece. I'm done.

You're right, we shouldn't have to enforce it because the adults should be adults. But they are not, they are coaches and by rule most have lost all sense of sensibility while on their sidelines.

Well considering that smoking crack or smoking chronic very likely would get you arrested, I think we can treat that a little differently. Just a guess on my part. :rolleyes:

Next thing you are going to say, "Well they do not have rules against having sex on the sideline either...." :eek:

Peace