PSK and Expanded Neutral Zone

[Smiley]

In order for PSK enforcement to apply, the ball must cross the expanded neutral zone and the foul must be beyond the expanded neutral zone. But the expanded neutral zone disintegrates when the ball crosses the expanded neutral zone or when the trajectory is such that it can't be touched until it comes down (this is the case on all kicks that aren't line drives). How is this handled when the kick is high and short and hits behind the neutral zone and then bounds across the neutral zone. What if the foul occurs after the expanded neutral zone has disintegrated? This doesn't appear to be addressed in the Rules or Case Book.

[nvfoa15]

Smiley,

IMHO, the neutral zone, thus the expanded neutral zone exist throughout the play. It (the ENZ) may not be considered during the play but it still exists. An offensive lineman may be in the ENZ during a play and not be considered inelegible lineman downfield, but just because that lineman is not in the zone doesn't mean its not there. I don't have my books with (in car and very lazy today) but the only thing that ceases to exist during a play is the free blocking zone. The NZ, ENZ, and LOS all continue to exist during the play and are considered when playing action/players come in or near these areas.

[Smiley]

Read 6.2.6 on page 43 of the Case Book. It says the expanded neutral zone disintegrates immediately when kick crosses the expanded neutral zone or when the trajectory is such that it cannot be touched until it comes down.

[Theisey]

Originally posted by Smiley
... How is this handled when the kick is high and short and hits behind the neutral zone and then bounds across the neutral zone.

Then the Expanded-NZ then by definition has not yet disintegrated. So by NFHS decree, any team-R foul that has occured up to that point where the ball finally does pass beyond the ExNZ would not be considered to be a PSK foul.

What if the foul occurs after the expanded neutral zone has disintegrated? This doesn't appear to be addressed in the Rules or Case Book.

Not sure what you are driving at since by definition, since this zones disintegrates once the kicked ball passes it anyhow. Regardless, that point remains two yards from the snap. So any team-R foul occuring beyond that two yard point is now a PSK foul. There will be cases where a team-R foul occurs 40 yards downfield, meaning the ExNZ has long since by definition been gone.
Therefore, nothing is unique that needs to be addressed

[Smiley]

The expanded neutral zone disintegrates when the trajectory is such that it can't be touched until it comes down. This is true regardless of where it may be coming down. So if it comes down behind the neutral zone, there is no expanded neutral zone for it to cross. We have been told in SC that we are to consider fouls that occur before or after the ball is kicked to include fouls that occur before the ball crosses the expanded neutral zone.

If the foul occurs downfield after the ball crosses the expanded neutral zone, which disintegrated the instant the ball crossed it, where is the foul in relation to the (now non-existent) neutral zone?

Either the rule needs to be changed so that the expanded neutral zone does not disintegrate, or the PSK rule needs to use "2 yards beyond the neutral zone" instead of the expanded neutral zone. 6.2.6 says the only purpose for expanding the neutral zone on kicks is to allow for normal line play.

[Theisey]

You guys ( and I don't mean you specifically) are making this much, much harder then it should be.
Granted the NF has done a terrible job in meshing PSK into the rules.
If we are going for changes to rules now, then the rule portion that says the ball has to first cross this line before a foul can be considered to be a PSK foul needs to be deleted and a definition of scrimmage kick play inserted.
If they were the first to have invented PSK, I could live with it, but they are not and a perfectly good working model exists and is easy to officiate by.

But back to your point of the ball trajectory. There is nothing to my knowledge in the rule that says the flight of the ball must come directly from leaving a kickers foot. We could have a terrible kick that bounces off the centers rear end or a blockers helmet. Or for that matter after hitting the ground. Therefore I believe the intent/spirit/interpretation of how to properly call this would be that any touching by team-R in the ExNZ is to be ignored as long as the ball status is that of a kick.
Do you believe/agree?
If not, well go for an intrepretation.

[Smiley]

No, I do not believe that any touching by R in the ENZ is to be ignored as long as the status is still a kick. That is precisely the point of 6.2.6. Once the ENZ disintegrates, any touching by R beyond the neutral zone establishes a new series. On a high trajectory kick, the neutral zone disintegrates immediately. Touching by R in the ENZ is only ignored on low scrimmage kicks.

[nvfoa15]

Ok Smiley, I see your point about the ENZ, but I believe that this is in reference to touching and not to PSK enforcement. So, a high scrimmage kick that comes down in what used to the ENZ would have the same consequences, if touched by R or K, as it would if it comes down some distance beyond the ENZ.

Theisey: I completly agree with your assesment that you ("us") guys have been making a mountain out of a mole hill on this PSK rule. Yes, the NF was not very explicit about its definition (what else is new), but the concept, to me, is the same as the NCAA. Yes, the NF did not define a scrimmage kick play and the rule, technically, seems to indicate that PSK is for fouls occur "during a scrimmage kick", I do not believe that that was the intent of the Federation. A scrimmage kick that goes beyond the NZ (other than a kick try) where R commits a foul beyond the ENZ (it did exist at one point) before the kick ends and retains possession of the ball at the end of the down is PSK enforcement. Remember this is not so much a new rule but a change in enforcement spots for certain loose ball fouls.

IMHO, state associations that interpret this rule literally are doing a great disservice to the game.