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NFHS: K punts from the 50, R21 muffs at the R 45. Kick rolls back to the K40, where K21 picks up the ball, then throws a forward pass to the R20 where it falls incomplete. What ya got?

I'll just go ahead and say I have K 1/10 at the 50.

If it was 4th down, I would have R 1/10 at the 50.

NFHS:
Kick ends behind the line of scrimmage, which means that anyone can pick up the ball and advance.

K's forward pass is legal, as it is the only forward pass thrown during the down, and it's thrown behind the LOS and prior to change of team possession.

Result of the play: incomplete forward pass.

If it's 4th down, it'll be 1st and 10 for R at the previous spot. If it's not 4th down, K puts the ball in play at the 50, down and distance as appropriate.

Ok so you guys saying R's ball, how do you reconcile the fundamental statement:

When R is first to touch a scrimmage kick beyond the NZ, a new series is awarded to the team in possession at the end of the down.

1973 is right - K 1/10 at the 50.


NFHS 5-1-3: "When a scrimmage down ends with the ball in the field of play or out of bounds between the goal lines, a new series is awarded to: ...(f.) The team in possession at the end of the down, if R is the first to touch a scrimmage kick while it is beyond the expanded neutral zone, unless the penalty is accepted for a non post-scrimmage kick foul which occurred before the kick ended or unless 6-2-7 [scrimmage kick out of bounds not in possession, or in joint possession] applies."

NFHS 7-5-1: "It is a legal forward pass, if during a scrimmage down and before team possession has changed, a player of A throws the ball with both feet of the passer in or behind the neutral zone when the ball is released. Only one forward pass may be thrown during a down."

So the forward pass is legal (meets all requirements of 7-5-1: during a scrimmage down, no change of possession, thrown by A behind the neutral zone, first forward pass of the down).

Since the kick is touched by R 5 yards beyond the line of scrimmage (thus beyond the expanded neutral zone), whoever recovers it will have a new series.

Change this slightly.

After K21 picks up the ball, he runs to the R45 where he throws an illegal forward pass that a) falls incomplete or b) is caught by K80 at the R25 where he is tackled.

I would say the ball would belong to K, 1st and 10 at their own 40 since a muff can only be recovered but not advanced. The ball would become dead once K recovered it.

Then that would be the case regardless of what K21 did, and nothing else matters.

So, to be clear, here's the new play:

NFHS: K punts from the 50, R21 muffs at the R 45. Kick rolls back to the K40, where K21 picks up the ball....runs to the R45 where he throws an illegal forward pass that a) falls incomplete or b) is caught by K80 at the R25 where he is tackled.



So the first half of the play is the same: K recovers a kick behind the NZ that R had touched beyond the NZ. So K will be awarded a new series at the end of the down.

The run is legal, but the forward pass beyond the NZ is not. IFP, enforced from the spot of the foul, 5 yards. K will still end up with 1/10 @ 50, clock on the snap.

The LOD provision of IFP lapses due to K being awarded a new series.

In the O.P. it was stated that k muffed the punt. I thought that a muff didn't make it a change of possossion. Am I wrong here? Please advise.

The only thing that would affect would be the clock status, and since it was an incomplete pass anyway, time is out until the ball is next put in play.

R muffed the kick. By rule if R touches the kick beyond the NZ, the team in possession at the end of the down is awarded a new series.

Not according to the book. This is told in 2 different ways. #1 would be NFHS Rule 2-27 (PG. 33). A muff is the touching of a loose ball by a player in an unsuccessful attempt to secure possession. Or 2-34; Art. 3 (Pg. 36) A change of possession occurs when the opponent gains player possession during the down.

So according to these definations, the fact that R touches the ball or "muffs" it does not constitute a change of possession.

It has nothing to do with change of possession, so you're looking at the wrong rule. This is a rule specifically to do with scrimmage kicks. The proper rule is 5-1-3, quoted in post #6 above.

Does ineligible receiver downfield come into play here? More than likely the center at the least will release to cover kick.

More than likely.

Once again, the NCAA rule is superior and prevents this craziness.

Guys, these case plays get real convoluted once we start deviating from the original post. Its easy to lose track of which play we are discussing.

The simple rule of thumb an old WH taught me is that once R touches a scrimmage kick beyond the NZ, its going to be a "first down for somebody at the end of the down". That somebody is normally the team in possession at the end of the down.

Remember, K can advance a muffed scrimmage kick behind the LOS, even if touched beyond and it rebounds back. They may then run, or pass or kick again behind the LOS. The LOD provision will not apply due to the new series being awarded.

And of course there will be the inevitable USC on R's head coach after you've gone and tried to explain all this to him.

No. Under NFHS all K players may go downfield before, during, or after the kick. No restrictions. 7-5-6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike51
Does ineligible receiver downfield come into play here? More than likely the center at the least will release to cover kick.
I believe Mike51 is questioning does Inelligibles Downfield apply on the pass thrown by K/A in the OP. I would say that all passing rules are in affect.

OP by Ref1973 ... NFHS: K punts from the 50, R21 muffs at the R 45. Kick rolls back to the K40, where K21 picks up the ball, then throws a forward pass to the R20 where it falls incomplete. What ya got?

Of course you're right, how silly of me.

Yes, since this is a legal forward pass, all passing restrictions (eligibility, interference) are in effect.

Note that, even if K avoids IED, they are likely to run afoul of the PI restrictions, which apply to the passing team from the snap until the pass is touched or is incomplete.

I don't think so. Usually they'd be trying to avoid contact beyond the neutral zone, not to cause it. They'd only start throwing blocks if they were aware that the ball had come back into possession of a K player. The ineligibles downfield would be a much likelier foul.

I got a lot of muffs in high school. I was a gunner before the word became popular usage..............Yes, I'm talking about punts. Got three in one game.

ok, I'll dive in here:

a) The play is dead at K40 when recovered (and a possible delay of game for throwing the ball after the completion of the play depending on when the whistle was sounded). A muff beyond the expanded neutral zone is not ignored. It is a muff and a recovered muff of a kick or punt cannot be advanced by K.

b) same as above

Read the other answers. This is wrong.

5.1.3 SITUATION C:

Fourth and 10 on K's 45-yard line. K1 punts the ball beyond the neutral zone. R1 muffs the ball back behind the neutral zone where K1 recovers and:

(a) falls on the ball at K's 40-yard line; or
(b) throws a forward pass to K3 which is complete at the 50-yard line and R1 interferes with K3; or
(c) K1 punts the ball and R1 fair catches at his 30-yard line.

RULING: Since R1 touched the kick beyond the neutral zone, it will be first down for the team in possession in (a), (b) and (c). In (a), it is a first down for K at K's 40-yard line. In (b), the pass is legal as there had been no change of team possession. If K accepts the penalty for interference, it will be K's ball at R's 40-yard line. In (c), the second punt is legal as there had been no change of team possession. The ball belongs to R first and 10 on its own 30-yard line. (5-1-2f; 6-2-1; 7-5-1)

Exactly. (b) and (c) in this case play show you that, obviously, the ball is not dead - as you said in your previous post.

On the original question. K's ball on the 40.

Disagree. An incomplete legal forward pass is returned to the previous spot.

When R muffs the punt and K recovers the muff, the play is dead and it is K's ball at the spot where they recovered the muff.

The play is only dead if a scrimmage kick is recovered by K beyond the LOS. This was recovered behind.

You can't advance a muff. Can you advance a muff that is recovered behind the neutral zone? That is the central question. I have to look this up.

Yes, you can. The correct answer to the OP (and relevant rules) posted here: http://forum.officiating.com/footbal...tml#post860979

So, you didn't even read the case play that is just 3 up from this post?

This was a typo. Meant to say "You can advance a muff"

I am wrong. Incomplete pass. R ball 1-10 at the 50, correct?

No. (The answer is already in this thread. Read from the beginning if you want to understand both the correct ruling and why it's the ruling.)

Got it.