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big jake Sat Sep 22, 2012 07:20pm

Sub penalty High school
 
Def player running off the field and the ball is snapped before he gets to his sideline. He is the 12th player. Is this a dead ball foul or do you let the play run and give the O the option on taking the play or the penalty

maven Sat Sep 22, 2012 07:48pm

Live ball illegal substitution foul at the snap, if accepted enforced 5 yards from the previous spot and the down replayed.

big jake Sat Sep 22, 2012 09:07pm

so, do not kill the play? at the snap?

HLin NC Sun Sep 23, 2012 06:13am

See above
Quote:

Live ball illegal substitution foul at the snap

CT1 Sun Sep 23, 2012 07:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by big jake (Post 855540)
so, do not kill the play? at the snap?

It doesn't become a foul until the snap.

Fouls like illegal motion, illegal shift, illegal formation, etc. are live-ball fouls because they can be "fixed" up until the time the ball is snapped.

bkdow Tue Sep 25, 2012 01:25pm

You are being generous to the defense to call IS. If the defense tried to sub at the last second and sent a player on and immediately the sub tried to leave, it's not IS. It IP, however, I would call the IS because it's 5 yards and IP is 15.

HLin NC Tue Sep 25, 2012 04:21pm

Quote:

You are being generous to the defense to call IS. If the defense tried to sub at the last second and sent a player on and immediately the sub tried to leave, it's not IS. It IP, however, I would call the IS because it's 5 yards and IP is 15.
B is not under the same restrictions as A in regards to formations and being between the numbers after the RFP to the snap. They are also not gaining much of an advantage subbing at the last second

In the original post, it is stated he is running off the field so it is apparent he is making an effort to leave. Some wings will even step in if it can put him behind and out of sight and thus avoid the foul entirely.

BktBallRef Tue Sep 25, 2012 04:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkdow (Post 856010)
You are being generous to the defense to call IS. If the defense tried to sub at the last second and sent a player on and immediately the sub tried to leave, it's not IS. It IP, however, I would call the IS because it's 5 yards and IP is 15.

Yes, it is IS.

It's not IP unless he remains on the field and participates in the play.

maven Tue Sep 25, 2012 07:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 856066)
Yes, it is IS.

It's not IP unless he remains on the field and participates in the play.

Agree. I'm sometimes surprised by how challenging the concept of 'participation' seems to be for some officials.

Forksref Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 856066)
Yes, it is IS.

It's not IP unless he remains on the field and participates in the play.

YEP!! And, if I am a wing official and he is really running hard to get OOB I will give him the benefit of the doubt if he is within a couple yards of the sideline.

Adam Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 856066)
Yes, it is IS.

It's not IP unless he remains on the field and participates in the play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maven (Post 856083)
Agree. I'm sometimes surprised by how challenging the concept of 'participation' seems to be for some officials.

Thanks, guys. I was starting to question my sanity there a moment.

Crisis averted.

JugglingReferee Wed Sep 26, 2012 06:24am

Canadian Ruling
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by big jake (Post 855532)
Def player running off the field and the ball is snapped before he gets to his sideline. He is the 12th player. Is this a dead ball foul or do you let the play run and give the O the option on taking the play or the penalty

CANADIAN RULING:

Legal, assuming that Team B player's run to the sideline didn't confuse an A player, and B was near the sideline.

McMac Thu Sep 27, 2012 05:48am

On the topic of IS and IP, I have worked with Rs that will take a definitive IP (as in we counted 12 AFTER the play was over) and call it IS because of the difference in the fouls. Why would a R be afraid to make this call?

maven Thu Sep 27, 2012 09:00am

Quote:

Originally Posted by McMac (Post 856254)
On the topic of IS and IP, I have worked with Rs that will take a definitive IP (as in we counted 12 AFTER the play was over) and call it IS because of the difference in the fouls. Why would a R be afraid to make this call?

Because 15 yards is a drive killer, and they are afraid to affect the game.


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