Need a tee?

mtridge · #1 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 13, 2012, 08:35pm

Couldn't find anything in the rule book either way. Is a tee mandatory for a kick off? The player placed the ball on the ground and kicked directly from the ground, anything wrong with this?

maven · #2 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 13, 2012, 08:44pm

2-24-7

The ball must be in a "fixed position," and lying loose on the ground ain't fixed.

mtridge · #3 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 13, 2012, 08:49pm

2-24-7 is for a place kick.

maven · #4 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 13, 2012, 08:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtridge

2-24-7 is for a place kick.

True. Please now look at 2-24-5.

HLin NC · #5 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 13, 2012, 09:10pm

Don't see anything that says a tee must be used in either rule. A free kick IS a place kick.

Quote:

ART. 3 . . . A free kick is any legal kick which puts the ball in play to start a free-kick down.

Quote:

ART. 7 . . . A place kick is a legal kick made while the ball is in a fixed position on the ground or on a kicking tee.

maven · #6 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 13, 2012, 09:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HLin NC

Don't see anything that says a tee must be used in either rule.

That's correct: the rule does not require a tee. But it does require that the ball be in a "fixed position."

Loose on the ground is not a "fixed position." That's why it's customary, when the ball blows off the tee, to have a holder fix its position on the tee. The kicking team may not simply set the ball on the ground and discard the tee.

HLin NC · #7 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 13, 2012, 09:53pm

A stationary ball on the ground is in a fixed position.

A holder can hold it on the ground without a tee.

Go ahead and call it like you want.

maven · #8 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 13, 2012, 10:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HLin NC

A stationary ball on the ground is in a fixed position.

A holder can hold it on the ground without a tee.

Go ahead and call it like you want.

I agree that a holder can hold it on the ground without a tee. A holder would fix its position.

Lying still is not being fixed: a place kick requires a ball held in place. This is the plain meaning of "fixed" in ordinary English.

And you're welcome to call it as you wish, too.

BktBallRef · #9 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 13, 2012, 10:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by maven

I agree that a holder can hold it on the ground without a tee. A holder would fix its position.

Lying still is not being fixed: a place kick requires a ball held in place. This is the plain meaning of "fixed" in ordinary English.

Totally and completely false.

A tee is no required.

A holder is not required.

The ball lying on the ground is in a fixed position.

Rich · #10 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 13, 2012, 10:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by maven

2-24-7

The ball must be in a "fixed position," and lying loose on the ground ain't fixed.

Go back and read 2-24-7 again. All of it.

HLin NC · #11 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 13, 2012, 11:51pm

a fixed position on the ground or on a kicking tee.

Robert Goodman · #12 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 14, 2012, 12:43am

By "fixed" I thought they meant stationary, i.e. not rolling -- not that it was like, uh, nailed to something. Would anybody here rule a kicking of the ball not to have been a place kick if the holder was moving the ball somewhat at the moment it was kicked?

maven · #13 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 14, 2012, 06:23am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich

Go back and read 2-24-7 again. All of it.

OK. Here it is:

"A place kick is a legal kick made while the ball is in a fixed position
on the ground or on a kicking tee. No material or device may be placed on the
ground to improve the kicker’s footing. The ball also may be held in position on
the ground or on a kicking tee by a place-kick holder who shall be a teammate of
the kicker. A place kick may be used for a scrimmage kick, a kickoff, a free kick
following a safety or for a free kick following a fair catch or awarded fair catch."

I'm still seeing "fixed position" to mean "on a tee" (with or without a holder) OR "held in position on the ground" by a holder.

Tony (and by implication, Rich) assert otherwise. So far it seems mere assertion with no rule backing, but I won't bet against the world.

cdoug · #14 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 14, 2012, 06:31am

Quote:

Originally Posted by maven

OK. Here it is:

"A place kick is a legal kick made while the ball is in a fixed position
on the ground or on a kicking tee. No material or device may be placed on the
ground to improve the kicker’s footing. The ball also may be held in position on
the ground or on a kicking tee by a place-kick holder who shall be a teammate of
the kicker. A place kick may be used for a scrimmage kick, a kickoff, a free kick
following a safety or for a free kick following a fair catch or awarded fair catch."

I'm still seeing "fixed position" to mean "on a tee" (with or without a holder) OR "held in position on the ground" by a holder.

Tony (and by implication, Rich) assert otherwise. So far it seems mere assertion with no rule backing, but I won't bet against the world.

It seems as though you agree that it doesn't HAVE to be on a tee, but the last part that I marked ("may") is the part that seems to me to be the part that allows K to kick it from the ground without a holder if they want.

HLin NC · #15 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 14, 2012, 07:12am

Look at the "OR" part. It states "OR kicking tee". That would indicate the kicking tee is the option to the "fixed positon ON the ground".

Forest = Trees