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Wed Jul 02, 2003, 01:45pm
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Pet peeve: Arrogant white hats...
Hey guys. I'm in a good mood here but I thought it would be fun to pick the white hats, all in good humor of course...
My main pet peeve is when the referee does not have confidence in his crew and he therefore tries to do too much (i.e. tries to cover other official's assignments) and then he gets himself and the crew in trouble. Actual situation in a high school all-star game last weekend: Quarterback takes quick snap, one step drop, turns towards sideline and throws a pass to the flanker who was off the line. The head-linesman and line judge punch backwards indicating it was a backwards pass. Mr. Referee, who is lined up at least 10 yards in the offensive backfield, blows his whistle and signals incomplete pass. Coach goes off on the sideline because the pass bounced off the ground but the recovering player made a great one bounce recovery and would have advanced for a first down... I was the umpire and I stayed out of the discussion because I'm watching the linemen like I'm supposed to. My question is this: primary responsibility for these types of quick passes... HL and LJ right? R should take a quick look at them first? Thanks guys. Remember: we need to also practice humbleness, trust, and belief in our crewmates... Working together, helping each other, working on individual improvement, being disciplined enough to concentrate on our assignments and allowing other officials to do the same; for me this is the true beauty of being on a good crew... I will approach this referee and discuss how all of us can better handle situations like this... With a spirit of love and concern for each other... We will improve and add benefits to the game we all love...
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Mike Simonds 
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Wed Jul 02, 2003, 02:08pm
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Re: Pet peeve: Arrogant white hats...
Quote:
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Mike Sears
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Wed Jul 02, 2003, 02:12pm
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Mike,
I believe that the primary determination of forward or backward is the R. Most of the guys we have here tell the line guys to be sure and punch it backward if it is so that the R is aware. Based solely on fragmented memories of discussions from past meetings (IE I don't have my books with me LOL) makes me think it is the R's and only his if he wants it that way.....with that said the line guys definitely have the best opportunity to judge this play. IMHO the reason the responsibility lies with R (aside from them not having anything better to watch  ) is that there is a possibility that the wing guys will drift with an outside reciever.... But yes arrogant R's cn be more trouble than they are worth I won't go into all the lovey dovey stuff like you did though 
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Wed Jul 02, 2003, 02:30pm
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Punch or Don't Punch
There are crews in our association who argue about the benefits and drawbacks of punching a backwards pass back.
Pros of punching: * Only the covering official should be punching and if he punches you know the pass is backwards. Cons of Punching: * What I will call "Inadvertent Punching". If someone does punch and someone else blows the whistle, you can have a real problem. Thoughts on the punching mechanic?
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Mike Sears
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Wed Jul 02, 2003, 02:34pm
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I think the "punch" is a good thing. Partly because in my earlier post, I believe the mechanics book gives the ultimate determination to the R doesn't it? If that is the case, with the line guys in better spots to see it, the punch certainly helps the R. Now whether the R wants to use the punch is another story LOL. Here where I am we use the punch, but only the guy on the side covering the play.
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Wed Jul 02, 2003, 07:55pm
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In my opinion, the LJ/HL are the ones who should call the quick pass you described backward or forward. They haven't drifted if they have their eyes on the right place and can kind of sense what's coming (those plays have a way of telegraphing themselves, just like the wideout in motion back toward the formation is going to be a crackback block on a backer during a sweep). Anything longer than a count of one, and it becomes the R's call.
Every season, half the white hats want the punch, half don't. It's more of a college mechanic and my chapter has a sort of low-grade simmering fued between the college guys and the strictly high school guys based on mechanics (and turn ins). Oh, and mark me down 100% in the pro-sunglasses camp. "We have never done it that way" is the weakest defense of any practice. If it's good enough for baseball, football, and volleyball players, not to mention cyclists and golfers (all of whom rely to some degree on good, clear vision) then it should be good enough for me. If football decided equipment regs based on "we've never done it that way" then players would still have leatherheads with no face masks.
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Wed Jul 02, 2003, 11:08pm
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Practically, the wing officials would seem to have the best point of view, being able to view all of the action at once. I do agree that only the covering official should make this determination.
The best way to prevent any disagreements I've found though, is to simply discuss this situation in your pregame. We do not work with the same crews every week, which has both benefits and drawbacks, but it does force us to discuss these items before every game. That being said, whether you like it or not, the white hat is on this person's head, so if we're going to be happy little crew-members, we should always go with the opinion of the white hat in the pregame. If he feels he has the call here....give it to him. If he wants you to have it, thank him profusely for the added responsibility and assure him you won't let him down! (or something along those lines )
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Stripes1977
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Thu Jul 03, 2003, 08:27am
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Stripes...right on the mark
This is a situation that must be covered in the pre-game. It should be firmly decided whose call this will be. 23 years with virtually the same crew and we still talk about this play pre-game. If the QB comes straight up from the snap and throws to the wing, we have the forward/backward determination made by the near-side wing. Only when the QB fades back from the snapper does the R take this call. Personally, I don't like the punch. If the wing has the call, his whistle or lack thereof indicates his ruling to everyone (including his crewmates). That said, my own personal bias is that the off-side wing has the better view of whether such a pass is forward/backward, but I do understand why we give that decision to the near-side guy--he's closer and it's easier for him to sell the call.
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Bob M.
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Thu Jul 03, 2003, 09:55am
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Shouldn't the R continue to the officiate the passer? How can he possibly know if the QB is roughed if he turns his head and is watching a pass? I can't imagine a situation where the R should be signalling an incomplete pass unless it's a "fumble/pass/arm going forward" issue with the QB being hit.
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"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott "You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith
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Thu Jul 03, 2003, 10:32am
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I had the luck to work Sat myself. In the pre-game the WH, HL and myself (LJ) went over punching backward passes to make sure we were all on the same page. One of the teams was know to throw a double pass and because we were using NCAA rules this mechanic was somewhat more important because NCAA doesn't allow more then one forward pass during the down. The WH wanted the backside wing to punch as he thought this was the best look but said whoever saw it should punch it .
BTW AB.... the temp at game time was just below 100% .In pre-game the WH told us sun-glasses were optional .I was planning on wearing mine because I knew that working my sideline Id have the pleasure of looking into a blistering setting sun. I was two steps out the door when I returned and tossed them into my bag. I just couldnt do it
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Thu Jul 03, 2003, 11:54am
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.02 more
Although the White Hat has "ultimate responsibility" for rulings on the field when necessary, it is an unwise R that doesn't foster a team approach, especially on a ruling on a backward pass. And wing guys, don't be bashful when the R is looking for a call, because if you're doing your job, your best guess will probably trump his best guess. Help your R if you are in position to do so.
You guys have covered the landscape with who should call the play. My thoughts: 1. Agree with Bob M., the offside wing has the best position to rule on a backward pass. I don't agree with the R making the call unless both wings are releasing downfield. He has too many other things to do (QB)and he doesn't have the angle. That being said, our R's typically will look to the flanks for the call and if all they get are a couple pair of DOE EYES, he sells his best guess! 2. Punch? Don't use it in FED games. If it's back, it's a no call, ball is live. If it's forward, whistle it dead. All the punch can do is get you in trouble. You can always come together to make a perceived backward pass (which a crew member swears went forward) dead. 3. If in doubt, IT WAS FORWARD, not backward! Discuss handling of this call in the pregame - PRICELESS!!
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Sun Jul 06, 2003, 01:37pm
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Re: .02 more
Quote:
Could not agree more, we use the backside wing to punch, only, no mimic from opposite man. I do WH youth and frosh games, trust in my crew, YOU BET! Where the heck am I gonna be w/o them?? Same goes for our Varsity WH, great guy...we preach #3 above as well...
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Mon Jul 07, 2003, 05:38am
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I think the best white hat stories I have is during the tackle of the ball carrier, I was at the U and got shielded by a couple players as the ball carrier was going down. After the play the WH asked me if I saw a late hit. I said no. He said I gotta watch that, that there was a late hit. I told him well first off I was shielded from the end of the play and secondly if he saw the LH how come he did not flag it. He just gave a little grumble and walked away.
The other one was during a scrimmage. There was a touchdown. The BJ signals TD. I was surprised when the WH did not turn to the press box and do the same. The offensive team lines up for a 2 pt try. They fail. The WH come running up ready to mark the ball for the next down not realizing it was the try. The look on his face when everyone started heading to the middle of the field was classic.
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Jim Need an out, get an out. Need a run, balk it in.
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Mon Jul 07, 2003, 08:57am
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REPLY: One of my favorite R stories--not about R arrogance, just absent-mindedness.
Happened with one of our more "senior" referees (i.e. please read to mean "a few too many years on the wrong side of retirement"). Some of the stories about this guy are priceless, but this one stands out: B intercepts at around midfield and runs down the sideline. A's pursuit catches up with him inside A's 5 and shoves him OOB just inside A's 1. The R (who amazingly actually kept up with the play) raises both arms above his head with his hands about 2 feet apart to signal that the B runner came up that much short. Just in case you missed it, he raised both arms above his head with his hands about two feet apart. Now both teams scurry to bring on their "try" teams. The U spots the ball at A's 3. Teams break the huddle and come to the line. The R asks the U why the ball is spotted in the middle of the field at the three; the ball belongs at the hash inside the one. Everyone in the stands including the whole crew (except for the R), both teams, and spectators thought that he had signalled a TD. Took many minutes of explanation to both coaches before they could resume 1-G inside A's 1.
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Bob M.
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Mon Jul 14, 2003, 09:58am
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Who punches is something that should be discussed in the pregame.
My belief is it depends upon the size of the crew. I work as WH on a 4-man crew and it would be impossible to believe there would always be a wing in position to rule. With a 5-man crew it is easier because wings can stay a bit longer as the BJ picks up downfield. Also, NFHS versus NCAA is important because NFHS uses the initial motion of the passer to determine backwards while NCAA uses position of receiver to the passer. Last season had one QB all game long took one step back and turned toward receiver, then threw the pass backwards. I punched on every play when he did this. Finally, late in the game he did it again, only this time the receiver missed and watched the ball drop at his feet. It was right in front of the other team's bench and the coach was going ballistic "Pick it up." They finally heard him and fell on it. Now the offensive coach is going ballistic. "How could you call that?", "You need the help of your line judge." So where was he for the first three quarters while his QB made the backwards passes?
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