Federation Rule Question

[sloth]

In the federation rule book, 2-16-4 states that "no foul causes a live ball to be dead". Here is a scenarion I am curious about. The yard markers aren't too significant...scrimmage kick. K1 kicks the ball well past the LOS. R1 catches the ball on the run, takes 3-4 steps and signals fair catch. Clearly by rule an illegal fair catch (as defined in 2-9-5).

Now since everything was legal up until the illegal fair catch, I have an instance according to 2-16-4 where a foul can not cause the live ball to be dead. However, I have a reciever that thinks he has protection under a fair catch. I don't blow the whistle, and he gets knocked into next week. I blow the whistle (to kill it) and I commit an inadvertant whistle.

Thoughs, insights, suggestions?


[Edited by sloth on Jun 30th, 2003 at 10:20 PM]

[bluezebra]

"Thoughs, insights, suggestions?"

Yes. Read the rule book more thoroughly. My book is from 1999, but DEAD BALL and END of DOWN, 4.2.2.g reads: Following a valid or invalid fair catch signal is given by any member of the receiving team when a scrimmage kick is caught or recovered by any member of the receiving team beyond, in or behind the neutral zone.

The foul doesn't cause the ball to be blown dead, any signal does. The numbers may have changed, but I'm sure the rule is still in effect.

Bob

[jfurdell]

Originally posted by bluezebra
Yes. Read the rule book more thoroughly. My book is from 1999, but DEAD BALL and END of DOWN, 4.2.2.g reads: Following a valid or invalid fair catch signal is given by any member of the receiving team when a scrimmage kick is caught or recovered by any member of the receiving team beyond, in or behind the neutral zone.

Actually that's wrong; this is an illegal fair catch signal, not an invalid one. An illegal signal is given by a runner after the kick has been caught or recovered, which is what happened in sloth's case, and it does not cause the ball to become dead. So that's an important distinction to remember.

(By definition, invalid signals occur before a kick is caught or recovered, after the kick has touched a receiver or the ground, or does not meet the requirements of a valid signal; these do cause the ball to become dead when the kick is caught/recovered by the receivers.)

As for whether to blow this play dead, I think I would treat it differently depending on what level game I was working. If I'm doing a varsity or sub-varsity game, I expect those kids to know that giving a fair catch signal after they've caught the ball isn't going to protect them from squat. They may have to learn the hard way by getting clobbered, but that happens sometimes.

However, when I'm working a lower-level game such as junior high or recreational, this kind of situation crops up from time to time. At this level, I don't have a problem blowing the whistle when the ball is live but everyone is standing around thinking it's not. This usually happens after a punt has rolled to a stop and an R player picks it up and stands there; everyone on both teams will stand around as if the play is dead. It's best just to kill these plays and mark the first down, and explain to them that the ball is still live in this situation.

If blowing the play dead isn't feasible, such as after an early snap that has everyone confused, I also don't have a problem yelling "Play it play it!" That usually gets 'em moving and lets them know to play to the whistle.

[cmathews]

jfurdell,
while I don't question your interpretation at all, I do disagree with how to handle the situation. When he signals, albeit illegally for a fair catch, I will blow the ball dead. This to me is no different than the player taking a knee and killing the play. With safety being the paramount issue at this level, if he thinks he is protected we need to do what we can to protect him just for the sake of safety. The difference between this and taking a knee is that he will be penalized for the illegal fair catch. To address the original post, it will still be the signal not the foul that causes the ball to become dead.

[James Neil]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sloth
[B]In the federation rule book, 2-16-4 states that "no foul causes a live ball to be dead". Here is a scenarion I am curious about. The yard markers aren't too significant...scrimmage kick. K1 kicks the ball well past the LOS. R1 catches the ball on the run, takes 3-4 steps and signals fair catch. Clearly by rule an illegal fair catch (as defined in 2-9-5).

Now since everything was legal up until the illegal fair catch, I have an instance according to 2-16-4 where a foul can not cause the live ball to be dead. However, I have a reciever that thinks he has protection under a fair catch. I don't blow the whistle, and he gets knocked into next week. I blow the whistle (to kill it) and I commit an inadvertant whistle.

Thoughs, insights, suggestions?

I don’t believe I’d blow the ball dead in this instance at any level. This isn't like a player who’s not expecting contact and then getting blasted. Plus I think the players are padded enough to withstand any legal contact.
BTW jfurdell.... Good call and explanation on the invalid vs. illegal signal

[Edited by James Neil on Jul 1st, 2003 at 09:43 AM]

[James Neil]

Originally posted by cmathews
jfurdell,
while I don't question your interpretation at all, I do disagree with how to handle the situation. When he signals, albeit illegally for a fair catch, I will blow the ball dead. This to me is no different than the player taking a knee and killing the play. With safety being the paramount issue at this level, if he thinks he is protected we need to do what we can to protect him just for the sake of safety. The difference between this and taking a knee is that he will be penalized for the illegal fair catch. To address the original post, it will still be the signal not the foul that causes the ball to become dead.

I must humbly disagree with you here. This is nothing like a player taking a knee. When a player is going to do this most if not all players and officials are aware of it and we take precautions to make sure no one is going to get pounced on. If working Ump I stand close to the line and tell all players, “if he takes a knee, stay -off”. I know our main responsibility is player safety but we can’t blow a live ball dead ever time we think a player isn't expecting to get hit. Would you do this if you saw a player stalking another who is clearly out of the action?

[cmathews]

James,
No I wouldn't blow it dead when it is clearly out of the action but I might say "hey be careful". The more I thought about your first post I came to this thought though. If he gives a fair catch signal, he is most definitely not expecting to get blasted, and I really don't see any difference, aside from the fact that it is a penalty, in this and taking a knee, or for that matter "hook sliding". In all instances the player with the ball is "giving up" his right to advance the ball in return for protection. I do agree that this is an illegal fair catch there is no doubt about that. I just think that in a case such as this it is best to blow it dead. I personally wouldn't sleep very well if a kid gave an illegal fair catch, turned to hand me the ball and got drilled in the back and injured.... With that said, I don't know that I have ever seen it happen, how many times has anyone else seen it....oh and another thing I usually don't have to worry cause I am up by the LOS as the U I don't have the books here at work, is there a case book play that addresses the issue at hand??

[Edited by cmathews on Jul 1st, 2003 at 09:52 AM]

[mikesears]

Originally posted by cmathews
James,
No I wouldn't blow it dead when it is clearly out of the action but I might say "hey be careful". The more I thought about your first post I came to this thought though. If he gives a fair catch signal, he is most definitely not expecting to get blasted, and I really don't see any difference, aside from the fact that it is a penalty, in this and taking a knee, or for that matter "hook sliding". In all instances the player with the ball is "giving up" his right to advance the ball in return for protection. I do agree that this is an illegal fair catch there is no doubt about that. I just think that in a case such as this it is best to blow it dead. I personally wouldn't sleep very well if a kid gave an illegal fair catch, turned to hand me the ball and got drilled in the back and injured.... With that said, I don't know that I have ever seen it happen, how many times has anyone else seen it....oh and another thing I usually don't have to worry cause I am up by the LOS as the U I don't have the books here at work, is there a case book play that addresses the issue at hand??

[Edited by cmathews on Jul 1st, 2003 at 09:52 AM]

While not addressed in the casebook or rulebook, it is addressed in the handbook.

In the Football Handbook, pg. 55 states under the heading, Illegal Fair Catch Signal, "Since the signal is given after the kick has been caught or recovered, the ball remains live."

As far as fair catch signals go, by rule, a player can't be contacted if he gives a VALID fair catch signal. But, if he gives an invalid fair catch signal, he is allowed to be contacted (although it might be a very short window for that contact to occur). A player who gives an invalid signal is only protected in that the ball becomes dead when he (or a team member) catches it. But he is NOT protected from being contacted if his signal isn't valid.


Lets apply the protection logic to another play. The QB throws an OBVIOUS backwards pass that hits the gound and is rolling around with no whistle. A player (thinking the throw is dead - i.e. he doesn't know the rule) is kind enough to pick the ball up and begins to hand it to you and he is drilled by an opponent. Are we supposed to kill this play to prevent this from happening too?

[cmathews]

Mike,
Good point and no I probably wouldn't blow it dead. So if the scenarios are indeed the same then, we probably shouldn't on the punt either. One thing though, maybe it is just a typo on your part, but in one area you say that any player that gives a valid fair catch signal is protected. Earlier in the thread it was pointed out that valid/invalid is different from legal/illegal.

"As far as fair catch signals go, by rule, a player can't be contacted if he gives a VALID fair catch signal"


So in reading your post if it is valid but illegal, it seems they would be afforded protection (except for the portion from the handbook)??

maybe we just have to tell em if you don't want to get hit after you catch it and start to run, either take a knee or go play soccer

[jfurdell]

Originally posted by cmathews
Earlier in the thread it was pointed out that valid/invalid is different from legal/illegal.

"As far as fair catch signals go, by rule, a player can't be contacted if he gives a VALID fair catch signal"

So in reading your post if it is valid but illegal, it seems they would be afforded protection (except for the portion from the handbook)?

A fair catch signal can be either:
-valid, or
-invalid, or
-illegal.

It can't be both "valid but illegal" as a signal must occur while a "legal kick is in flight". And, by rule, "only the receiver who gives a valid signal is afforded protection." (2003 NFHS Rules 6-5-1 and -3)

So, a runner who gives an illegal fair catch signal is not afforded protection, and the ball remains alive. Read Rules 2-9 and 6-5 for more info.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by cmathews
Mike,
Good point and no I probably wouldn't blow it dead. So if the scenarios are indeed the same then, we probably shouldn't on the punt either. One thing though, maybe it is just a typo on your part, but in one area you say that any player that gives a valid fair catch signal is protected. Earlier in the thread it was pointed out that valid/invalid is different from legal/illegal.

"As far as fair catch signals go, by rule, a player can't be contacted if he gives a VALID fair catch signal"


So in reading your post if it is valid but illegal, it seems they would be afforded protection (except for the portion from the handbook)??

maybe we just have to tell em if you don't want to get hit after you catch it and start to run, either take a knee or go play soccer

As jfurdell states, "It can't be BOTH valid and illegal."

Fair Catches

The definition for a fair catch is

"... a catch by a receiver...of a scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone to the receiver's goal line, after a valid signal."


What is a valid signal?
"A valid signal is the extending and lateral waving of one arm, at full arm's length above the head, by any member of the kicking team."

What is an invalid signal?
"An invalid signal is any signal by a receiver before the kick is caught or recovered:
A. that does not meet the requirements of a valid signal.
B. After the kick has touched a receiver.
C. After the kick has touched the ground."

What is an illegal signal?
"An illegal fair catch signal is any signal by the runner:
A. After the kick is caught.
B. After the kick is recovered."


Once we understand these, we can understand the rules regarding fair catches.

1. Any receiver may signal for a fair catch. Once a receiver signals (validly or invalidy), he is prohibited from blocking until the KICK has ended.

2. It is a fair catch and the ball is dead if any receiver gives a VALID signal only.

3. Only the player who gives a valid signal is afforded protection. If one player signals (validly) and another player catches the ball, it is NOT a fair catch but the ball becomes dead.

4. No player may advance the ball after a valid or invalid fair catch signal. (Note that this doesn't address an illegal signal.)


Hope this helps.

[Theisey]

Originally posted by sloth
In the federation rule book, 2-16-4 states that "no foul causes a live ball to be dead". Here is a scenarion I am curious about. The yard markers aren't too significant...scrimmage kick. K1 kicks the ball well past the LOS. R1 catches the ball on the run, takes 3-4 steps and signals fair catch. Clearly by rule an illegal fair catch (as defined in 2-9-5).

Now since everything was legal up until the illegal fair catch, I have an instance according to 2-16-4 where a foul can not cause the live ball to be dead. However, I have a reciever that thinks he has protection under a fair catch. I don't blow the whistle, and he gets knocked into next week. I blow the whistle (to kill it) and I commit an inadvertant whistle.

Thoughs, insights, suggestions?


[Edited by sloth on Jun 30th, 2003 at 10:20 PM]

We'll as you have by now have read.. a play situation like this remains live.
A players misunderstanding of the rules is just, well an unfortunate problem that is not the officials concern. I would certainly not advise that an IW is the easy way out. They just cause more problems.

To bad the NF doesn't follow the NCAA code. This play would have been blown dead.

[sloth]

Thanks for the replys...I'm trying to re-read my books before the season. I may post a few more questions that I come across. Again thanks for the input.

[sm_bbcoach]

To bad the NF doesn't follow the NCAA code. This play would have been blown dead.

Just to mud up the water more, what is the NCAA ruling on this?

[Theisey]

Any signal after a kick has been caught/recovered whether it be Valid or Invalid will cause the whistle to be blown and the play is over.
There is NO foul. The ball is just plain dead.
Nice and simple.

NCAA has deleted all references to an illegal signal. It just does not exist any more.