Play

#1 (**permalink**) Sat Jul 15, 2000, 11:53pm

K is in kick formation (field goal). 4th/10 on Bs 15 yd line. The snap is muffed by K2 and then as the ball is rolling around on the ground is kicked by K1, which goes through the uprights.
Ruling/Penalty:

linejudge · #2 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 20, 2000, 03:08pm

K is in kick formation (field goal). 4th/10 on Bs 15 yd line. K is in kick formation (field goal). 4th/10 on Bs 15 yd line. The snap is muffed by K2 and then as the ball is rolling around on the ground is kicked by K1, which goes through the uprights
I am partly guessing here, since no bible is handy. This is an illegal kick. 15 yards from the spot of the foul. Basic spot is the previous spot(loose ball enforcement), and the foul occurred behind the basic spot, so enforce from the spot of the foul. There is no score since it was not a legal kick. What I cannot remember is if it carries a Loss of Down penalty.

If no Loss of down here is what I have:
15 yards from where ball was kicked, repeat fourth down.
If Loss of down is included:
15 yards from where ball is kicked and B will take over 1st and 10.

What do you think?
Erick

Schmidt MJ · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 25, 2000, 02:04pm

quote:
Originally posted by linejudge:
K is in kick formation (field goal). 4th/10 on Bs 15 yd line. K is in kick formation (field goal). 4th/10 on Bs 15 yd line. The snap is muffed by K2 and then as the ball is rolling around on the ground is kicked by K1, which goes through the uprights
I am partly guessing here, since no bible is handy. This is an illegal kick. 15 yards from the spot of the foul. Basic spot is the previous spot(loose ball enforcement), and the foul occurred behind the basic spot, so enforce from the spot of the foul. There is no score since it was not a legal kick. What I cannot remember is if it carries a Loss of Down penalty.

If no Loss of down here is what I have:
15 yards from where ball was kicked, repeat fourth down.
If Loss of down is included:
15 yards from where ball is kicked and B will take over 1st and 10.

What do you think?
Erick

You're ruling is pretty much on the money as far as penalty acceptance, but "B" may want to decline this penalty, here's why. You are correct in saying the penalty is enforced from the spot of the foul. We would mark off 15 yards and replay the down (no loss of down). "A" would then get another chance at making the field goal. If the penalty is declined, B would get the ball at the 20 yard line. When the ball is loose following an illegal kick it is treated as a fumble. An illegal kick cannot score a field goal since, in effect, it is not a kick at all, simply a loose ball. The results of the play are that a loose ball went out of the end zone. Since the force for the ball going into & out of the end zone was provided by A, it is a touchback and B's ball at the 20 yard line. This topic has been discussed on this board on a couple other occasions & this can be a somewhat tricky situation if you're not familiar with these rulings.

#4 (**permalink**) Sat Aug 05, 2000, 01:03am

Thanks, Schmidt MJ

That was my point, was about the the touchback being it was forth down....
I'm new to this forum! I wanted to see if anybody picked up on that! I still learning myself but I feel this is a very important ruling...Thanks again, tpaul
NJFOA

Larry Gonski · #5 (**permalink**) Sun Aug 06, 2000, 02:17am

What would happen if a punt on fourth down and from the three and the punt was muffed by K and R was about to pounce on it in the end zone when the kicker then kicks the loose ball out of the end zone?

Schmidt MJ · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Aug 08, 2000, 07:13pm

quote:
Originally posted by Larry Gonski:
What would happen if a punt on fourth down and from the three and the punt was muffed by K and R was about to pounce on it in the end zone when the kicker then kicks the loose ball out of the end zone?

Larry,

To answer your question, this would be a safety for 2 reasons. But first let me clarify your play. I think you meant to say that the "snap" was muffed by K, not the "punt" was muffed by K. Either way, I guess it still doesn't make any difference in the result. First, if R declines the penalty for illegal kicking it would be a safety because the snap put the ball in the endzone where it was declared dead in K's possession by going OOB. Second, if R accepts the penalty for illegal kicking it would be a safety because the all-but-one principle dictates that the spot of enforcement on a loose ball foul by the offense behind the basic spot is the spot of the foul.

Larry Gonski · #7 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 10, 2000, 12:50am

An ref here in Calif. during the playoffs gave B a td. His reason was that B was about to recover the ball when K illegally kicked the ball backwards.

gardenman · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Aug 14, 2000, 01:15pm

the original play is a touchback, unless B accepts the penalty for As illegal kick. Than it
would be a replay of the down from the spot, of the illegal kick (end of the run) minus 15 yards. Now
about that ref in California. That call took some guts. But he has the right to do that.

Andy_Driver · #9 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 07, 2000, 01:31pm

QUOTE:

the original play is a touchback, unless B accepts the penalty for As illegal kick. Than it
would be a replay of the down from the spot, of the illegal kick (end of the run) minus 15 yards. Now
about that ref in California. That call took some guts. But he has the right to do that.

I couldn't disagree more. If I remember correctly the ball was already in K's end zone. The correct call should have been a safety - NOT a TD. If I had been the K coach I would have raised a heckuva stink when the referee did that.