I thought that I would call on the combined wisdom of this board (I miss Derock) to discuss a topic I don't think is avaibable for review in any mechanics manual. Maybe it's too easy to understand.

Under the NFHS and NCAA codes, in which situations is it mandatory to drop a bean bag? I know the mechanics differ a bit between codes. Please be specific with which code you're citing when posting.

Thanks, fellas.

Buy youself a copy of the Officals Manual from the NFHS.
All the conditions for using a bag are documented there.
It's on those books that has a lot of good stuff in it, like mechanics for 4 and 5 man games.
We get it every other year (only updated every other year) as part of our chapter dues.

Thanks, Theisey.

Can't believe in all these years that we never got one!

How about NCAA?

there is a summary page in each of the CAA mechanics manuals, which we use in NCAA games.

NFHS Officials Manual states:

A. The bean bag is to be dropped on the appropriate yard line in accordance with the situations calling for such action in this manual.

B. The bean bag is to serve as an aid to enforcement and not an absolute reference point.

Here are my instructions to my crew on using the bean bag.

- When the player possession is lost during the down - mandatory
- When you need to mark a spot and then to tend to the players

The new one this coming season, when possession of the ball following a scrimmage kick occurs. With the PSK enforcement this season you have to be able to mark the enforcement spot. In previous seasons, you returned to the previous spot.

One last and important caveat, DO NOT use your beanbag to throw at a spot. If you can't hustle to a spot, then unhustle yourself to another crew.

One More
 

There is at least one additional beanbagable situation for both FED and NCAA that I'm sure you include... marking the spot when ruling momentum.

Bean Bags
 

In regards to the Bean Bag question posted earlier, it is proper to drop a bean bag on those situations where possession is lost. Keep in mind that snaps from center and backward passes are not possession lost situations.

In addition, this year in Federation, officials need to drop a bean bag where a scrimmage kick is successfully fielded in the field of play so as to mark the Post Scrimmage kick spot (PSK) for penalty enforcement.

HeyRef...one correction...
 

You mention that a backward pass is not (??) a lost possession situation. I disagree. If a backward pass from <b><i>beyond</i></b> the neutral zone occurs, you had better mark the spot with a bean bag. That spot is the end of the related run and may become the spot of enforcement for a foul by the offense that occurs after the pass and before possession of the loose ball is regained. Correct?

To be a little more precise...
 

Actually, to be more precise, the spot of the backward pass <b><u>may</u></b> become the enforcement spot for a foul by the offense during the pass, and <b><u>will</u></b> become the spot of enforcement for defensive fouls during the pass.

As a general rule, I was taught to bean bag fumbles, muffs and where punt's are caught. Some people do interceptions and backward passes, but I don't know that I understand the value.

Team possession versus player possession...
 

Bob brings up some good points...

We need to mark the spot where the run ends for penalty enforcement.

For example, at the spot of the backward pass made beyond the neutral zone.

Player possession is given up at this spot, but team possession remains the same unless the defense intercepts or recovers the backwards pass.

Therefore we must be alert to know the sequence of events in order to properly administer the play.

Hey Sleeper, I've been a big fan of Monty Python for almost the past 30 years. How is your semi-pro officiating going? Our league starts a week from Saturday...

I had a good game during the pre-season and got picked up as a substitute. I am hoping for a more regular spot when one opens up. I found another league that needed help and I am hoping to work some there as well. I also picked up a 7 on 7 tournament. I am trying to get as many games as possible to suppliement my offseason workout I started a couple of weeks ago.

I have the two CD set of Monty Python's Greatest hits. Keeps me sane (although my sanity may be questionable at best).

The value is this:
-Momentum may be involved on an interception.

-The spot of the backward pass when beyond the NZ is the end of a run and could be an enforcement spot for fouls by team-A

Re: HeyRef...one correction...
 

You are both correct. A backward pass involves a loss of player possession but not a loss of team possession.

You should drop a bean bag anytime player possession is lost becuase that will be the spot where the run ends and as Bob M mentioned it becomes the basic spot for enforcement.

On a backward pass or any loose ball play or situation the ball remains in team possession until the other team gains possession. It is important to note when that occurs because the time of the foul and how it is enforced may depend upon who has possession.

REPLY: Up until this season, there was no reason in Federation to bag the spot where a punt was caught unless it was inside B's 5 yardline and momentum was being ruled. Same for interceptions. This season, we'll need to bag the spot that punts are caught because of the potential for a PSK enforcement foul by B. However, I still contend that you absolutely <b>must</b> bag backward passes from beyond the neutral zone. Now, if it's a quick pass and possession is regained immediately, you can probably get away with leaving the bag tucked in your knickers, but if the pass falls loose, I would bag the spot of the pass immediately.

Interceptions do not need to be bagged because it is a loose ball play and the spot of enforcement is the previous spot.

For some reason backward passes I think you do not need a bean bag but Bob M. makes a good argument for it. On a backward pass player possession is lost even if momentarily. The enforcement spot during a loose ball would be the spot where the run ends.

Keep in mind any foul by B prior to or during the backward pass, assuming that you've only had a running play up to this time, will be penalized from the spot of the backward pass. Not just fouls during the backward pass. These fouls are penalized from the spot of the RELATED RUN. This only applies to backward passes beyond the neutral zone. If the backward pass follows a loose ball play (forward pass, kick, etc.) then timing of the foul comes into play.

WVREF...you're correct
 

You're right....My fingers were typing faster than my brain was thinking. I realized it after I hit the "submit" button. Thanks for pointing that out.

There’s another bagging that’s not been mentioned yet. How about when the QB is being dragged backward during a sack and the WH bags the forward progress spot.

I'm in Texas, so we are working NCAA and bag punts for PSK. On the backward pass, if the ball hits the ground, then so does the bean bag. Otherwise, I am still not sure why I would bag a completed backward pass.

I don't know NCAA rules, but under NF a backward pass beyond the neutral zone ends the related run (whether complete or incomplete) and is an enforcement spot for fouls by B prior to the pass, and fouls by A prior to the pass if they occur beyond the spot of the pass.

here's two more to chew on :)

A 3/5 @ 50 A1 hands-off to A2 who runs to the B-45 and throws a backward pass to A3 standing at the B-48.
A3 runs out of bounds at the B-20 . During A2’s run , A88 held B1 at the B-30.

A 3/5 @ 50 A1 hands-off to A2 who runs to the B-45 and throws a backward pass to A3 standing at the B-48.
A3 runs out of bounds at the B-20 . During A3’s run , A88 held B1 at the B-40

A 3/5 @ 50 A1 hands-off to A2 who runs to the B-45 and throws a backward pass to A3 standing at the B-48.
A3 runs out of bounds at the B-20 . During A2’s run , A88 held B1 at the B-30. <b>RULING: The basic spot of enforcement is the end of the related run, i.e. the spot of the backward pass (B's 45). Result is A, 3-10 @ A's 45.</b>

A 3/5 @ 50 A1 hands-off to A2 who runs to the B-45 and throws a backward pass to A3 standing at the B-48.
A3 runs out of bounds at the B-20 . During A3’s run , A88 held B1 at the B-40. <b>RULING: Since the foul occurred during A3's run, the basic spot is the end of his run, i.e. B's 20. The foul is at B's 40--behind the basic spot. Therefore the result is A's ball, 3-5 @ midfield. </b>

By the way, NCAA rules do concur that the spot of the backward pass will become the enforcement spot for a foul by Team A prior to the pass if it's behind the spot of the foul. So, in my opinion, NCAA and Federation officials should bag the spot of the pass regardless of whether the pass is completed or not. Jim's first play points that out vividly. The results are the same for NCAA and Federation rules.

Don't you also beanbag it on a free kick if there's first touching by the kicking team (in the first 10 yards)? That's what I've been told to do. That's why I hold the beanbag in my hand as a lines judges during kickoffs. The R team can take the ball at the site of first touching in that case.

Absolutely correct. All officials covering the neutral zone for a free kick should have bean bag in hand. If K touches the ball within the NZ, R can accept a first touching violation at that point.

On-sides kicks can involve all arms and legs and you as the official may not know exactly where the touching occurred because the adrenaline is pumping so fast. The beanbag lets you and everyone else know if it was in the NZ or out.

Case in point, covering an on-sides all the kickers converge on my side. I am running with the ball when K touches it. I am unsure exactly where between the 40 and 50 yard lines where it occurred. When I look back the bag is just on K's side of the 50.

Follow up on THeisey's post
 

Earlier Tom posted a response that mentioned the CCA Mechanics Manual. Here's an excerpt of the section Tom was referring to:

<i>A. The bean bag will be dropped on the approximate yard line. (Herein after referred to as "spot".) TRY TO DROP THE BEAN BAG!
B. The bean bag will be dropped to mark the appropriate spot:
1. When a scrimmage kick ends inbounds. (This marks the Post Scrimmage Kick enforcement spot. Normally only one official will mark this spot with his bean bag.)
2. When the covering official actually sees a live ball fumbled anywhere on the field.
3. When a hand-off or backward pass occurs beyond the neutral zone or when there is no neutral zone.
4. When an eligible Team A pass receiver voluntarily goes out of bounds.
5. When an eligible receiver fails to return inbounds immediately after being blocked out of bounds.
6. When a Team A player goes out of bounds during a free or scrimmage kick down.
7. When a Team A player illegally touches a free or scrimmage kick.
8. When a Team B player intercepts a forward pass, fumble or backward pass between his five yard line and the goal line.
9. When a Team B player catches a free or scrimmage kick between his five yard line and the goal line.
10. When a Team B player recovers a fumble or kick between his five yard line and the goal line.
11. When necessary to mark forward progress when the runner/passer is driven back.
12. When the Team A player attempting to pass is tackled behind his line of scrimmage (QB "sack").</i>