Pulling the pile?
 

My 11-12 youth team was called for illegally "pulling the pile" on a wedge play and the penalty was for 15 yards. I have never ever heard of this being called and have searched through my rule books to no avail. I have heard of the illegally assisting the runner penalty for 5 yards. But 15 yard penalty? Instead of 3rd and goal from the 1/2 yard line it became 3rd and goal from the 15 and 1/2. We didn't score and lost 6-0.

There is no such foul in NFHS. Many coaches want "pushing the pile" called but unless the aiding player contacts the runner directly, its not going to be called.

SECTION 1 HELPING THE RUNNER
An offensive player shall not push, pull or lift the runner to assist his forward
progress.
PENALTY: Helping the runner (S44) – 5 yards.

That being said, we have no way of knowing what rule set your league uses, what modifications are being used, what you might have "misheard", what the official might have "misspoke".

Did you request a coach-referee conference to discuss the possible misapplication of a rule?

Canadian Ruling
 

CANADIAN RULING:

Legal.

Only thing I could see legitimately called here might be holding ... if the pulling was done on an opponent.

[QUOTE=HLin NC;797636]There is no such foul in NFHS. Many coaches want "pushing the pile" called but unless the aiding player contacts the runner directly, its not going to be called.

SECTION 1 HELPING THE RUNNER
An offensive player shall not push, pull or lift the runner to assist his forward
progress.
PENALTY: Helping the runner (S44) – 5 yards.

That being said, we have no way of knowing what rule set your league uses, what modifications are being used, what you might have "misheard", what the official might have "misspoke".

Did you request a coach-referee conference to discuss the possible misapplication of a rule?

I completely agree with what you say regarding that the ref might have misspoke.. I know that he definitely told me it was illegal to pull on the pile...
Also this situation occurred at the expiration of the 1st quarter so I wasn't aware there was a penalty until after we had our kids ran back onto the field. I saw the officials in conference but thought they were just chatting because it was between quarters.. The penalty I believe was for unsportsman like conduct " pulling on the pile." I have never heard that penalty ever called in all my years of football. It's honestly my own fault for not challenging him and taking his explanation at face value. But now I know..

Am I the only one here who sees this? Think what "pulling" entails, and if on offense you're pulling anything, it's got to be illegal use of hands. That hasn't been a 15 yard penalty for decades, but it's either:

• assisting the ballcarrier by pulling him,
• locking arms with a teammate in blocking, or
• holding an opponent.

Can anyone else explain how any form of "pulling the pile" where a teammate in the pile has the ball could be legal other than in Rugby Union?

Can you explain how one would even pull a "pile"? Unfortunately, we weren't there to see and hear it for ourselves. Whatever you see in this, only you know.

This case appears to either be some form of miscommunication or an official(s) that is either way too new or way too old or just simply made something up. We don't even know the level of officiating for this league is. Are they local HS officials or are they volunteers run through a Saturday clinic in August?

This coach probably needs to approach the officiating administrator for this league and try to get clarification on the play and enforcement. Something isn't adding up.

Sure. You left out[*]pulling the jersey of a teammate (which would be completely legal).

You mean the standard for illegal use of hands on opponents and teammates is different? Is not grasping the clothes grasping the person wearing them?

Yep, that's exactly what he means.

See Rule 9-2

Um ... are you serious? Who's being punked here? Thank god you own no stripes.

So I'm being naive to assume that the word "grasp" as used in different portions of that rule had the same meaning as applied to teammates and opponents?

Are you actually suggesting that pulling the jersey of a teammate, in possession of a live ball, forward would not violate 9-1-1, "An offensive player shall not push, pull or lift the runner to assist his forward progress"?

I'm still trying to wrap my brain around pulling an entire pile without the aid of some netting and mechanized equipment.

Are you serious? The head bone's connected to the neck bone, etc.

The OP said the player was pulling THE PILE. I assumed this meant "not the runner". The rule you describe makes it illegal to pull the teammate IN POSSESSION OF A LIVE BALL... but not just some random player in the pile.

Westwood Rams vs Firebirds Seniors - Chris Push the Pile - YouTube

Red #39

Uh, Red #39 peels back to block BJ.

Guess again.

red #39 is pulling the pile!
It is not illegal because he is on defense, but he is pulling the pile! :D

There should be a flag on this play though and most of you would not throw it. More than one A player is pushing the pile and helping the runner.

That is the spirit of the rule.

The rule is the rule as written in the rule book, you have no idea what the "spirit" of the rule is. No one was directly helping the runner, thus no flag, I would hope no official would throw a flag on this play as there is no reason for one.

If you're on offense, who are you allowed to pull? Some player away from the play, OK. We had a goofy play in touch football where receivers interlaced elbows and did a 360 before separating...that would be legal. But who in cx with a pile could you legally pull on? You can't use your hands & arms to interlock in interference for the runner, and you can't pull a defender away from the runner -- or towards the runner, for that matter. Who does that leave?

They've had a long time to say so in the rules, analogously to forced touching situations in relationship to the ball, but they haven't, so I assume they want to keep it legal. A defender turns his back to you in making the tackle just as you get there, or you work your way around in contact from his side to his back, then you can block him in the back, and that winds up xmitting force to the runner in this example, nothing you can do about it in the rules. I would say that if you approached from behind and the tackler already clearly had his back to you as you approached so that your initial contact was with his back, you should be flagged for that.

#2 and 32 are directly contacting the runner in the video I posted.
Like I said most officials won't call it. I watched the OHSAA state finals 2 years ago and saw it 5 times in one game where the FB came up and pushed the QB toward the goal line. No call, the next year I believe it was a POE. :rolleyes:

You need you eyes checked, #2 is pushing a RED player who is between him and the runner, and #32 is not pushing at all, more like standing there watching with his hands out. shame on anyone who thinks this is helping the runner.

The big surge came from those not in direct contact but 32 and 2 both had a hand on the runner, pushing. that is all the rule says, not how hard.

And the Pac-10 officials didn't have the stones to call the Bush Push:

USC Steals One At South Bend! (2005) - YouTube

Indeed, I've yet to see it called at the college level. If they won't call it when it is that clear and blatant, why would they call it on a pile?

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink

Maybe even a pull.

It is no such thing. People push "the pile" all the time. Surely you don't mean that if you can't get to the runner, you must back off and wait your turn...

The rule says you can't push THE RUNNER. (Like Reggie Bush was pushed in the ND-USC game a few years back). Pushing the pile is NOTHING. You can't get on the ballcarrier and just push him.

I see what you see, but you might want to reread the exact words of the rule. This (your video) is not illegal either.

9 other players. 41% of the people on the field.

I don't doubt that in many "pushing the pile" situations there may very well be undetected "helping the runner" occuring. However, officials do not have the luxury of "suspecting" what may be going on, that many spectators enjoy.

For a field official, applying Penalties is restricted to only those rule violations that are directly and unequivocaly observed in their entirety, or perceived to have been observed.

When observed, Helping the Runner is a foul, if not directly observed it should not be called, and you should understand this foul, when a large group of players are involved is extremely difficult to observe.

An offensive player shall not push, pull or lift the runner to assist his forward
progress.
PENALTY: Helping the runner (S44) – 5 yards.

So if you as an official feel his forward progress isn't assisted it is not a foul? BS, that is what they are trying to do.

When they're part of a pile? No way.

Last try here. not sure why I bother though.

what part of "push, pull or life THE RUNNER" is unclear?

There are no rules whatsoever that say what you can do to a teammate that doesn't have the ball, with the exception of interlocking your arms while blocking. Pushing or pulling on your own player who does not have the ball is not illegal.

You know, I've found the "ignore poster" function in the user CP is a blissful experience.

#32 is pushing the runner!

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink

Fed 2-3-9: "Interlocked blocking occurs when one player grasps or encircles a teammate just prior to or while blocking an opponent."

NCAA: "Teammates of the ball carrier or passer...shall not use interlocked interference by grasping or encircling one another in any manner while contacting an opponent."

How can you pull without grasping?

sideways and not assisting the runner in moving forward, if anything it appears he pushes the runner into the defender. This is a penalty that is called, but it needs to be obvious assisting of the runner. I have called it two times, and each time it was like a train moving down the field with a runner and another player right on his back pushing.

in your world, if a player lays a pinky on the runner it is a foul...

Pretty obvious that the runner was assisted in moving forward in the video I posted, to fit the definition, I showed where #32 was pushing the runner. If the runner gains more yards than he would have without the assist of others, it should be called helping the runner. No where does it say he must be touching the runner directly to do this. If you are pushing the car I am in and I get to the gas station, you were pushing me and the car, no?

If I am tangled up in a pile or scrum or whatever, pushing the whole pile does assist in the runne's forward progress and that is how it should be called. You guys are always telling me not to be so litteral in interpreting the rules but here is a case of most officials doing just that!

:D +1

This was exactly the kind of thing that popped into my mind when I first read the OP.

Now I know I'm being punked. I'm not going to define "while blocking" or "while contacting an opponent" for you, but that rule is completely inapplicable in the situation we're discussing.

Except for the words in the rule. your inference is absurd.

If I was legally blocking an opponent and he contacted his teammates back - have I now blocked in the back?

Based on your definition here if I'm already in the middle of the pile (because I'm a lineman and we all get into a scrum together) and the runner comes into the back of us and we are collectively able to help the runner gain an extra yard or two by pushing the pile, you want it flagged as assisting the runner.

How else do you conceive the "pile" the original poster said was referenced by the official? How could players possibly be said to be part of a pile without being in contact?

In Ohio it doesn't get called when it is blatantly the back running up and pushing the QB forward on a short yardage play. Most guys coach the backs to do that knowing it won't get called.
I know no one is going to call it if there is a scrum of any kind.

Rogers Redding's latest NCAA Bulletin addresses this issue:

In trying to gain yardage, ball carrier A44 is slowed by defensive players attempting to make the tackle. Back A22 (a) puts his hands on the buttocks of A44 and pushes him forward; (b) pushes the pile of teammates who begin to surround A44; (c) grabs the arm of A44 and tries to pull him forward for more yardage.
RULING: (a) and (c) Foul for assisting the runner. 5-yard penalty with three-and-one enforcement. (b) Legal play. It is not clear that A22 is directly assisting A44. (9-3-2-b)

Well I think we have established that Redding guide means nothing for NFHS.
:rolleyes:


http://forum.officiating.com/footbal...al-snap-4.html

Absent a specific FED case play, I'd say the philosophy given by Dr. Redding's ruling would work well for those calling NFHS games.

Rolleyes means sarcasms! did you click on the link?

The quote I supplied is NOT from the Reddings Guide. It's from a in-season series of interpretations given by Dr. Redding for NCAA officials.

Hands on buttocks can always be a foul!

There seem to be 2 issues in the original post, and I'm not sure they're being addressed: pulling, and the pile. Pushing a pile may be legal depending on the details, and pulling another player is sometimes legal too. But I don't see why it's even hard to understand that by "pulling the pile", the official was referring to some illegal use of hands -- in either blocking an opponent, pulling the runner, or interlocked interference -- and it's also clear that for a pile to have been the object, one of those must've occurred. The mere fact that the official didn't specify which, and indeed may not have been able to see which violation it was, doesn't mean it was a bogus call (penalty notwithstanding). When you see someone reach into an opaque cookie jar, even if you can't tell which type of cookie was grabbed, do you have a problem with concluding that a cookie was the object of grasping?

If this is how you officiate, by inferring something happened but not actually seeing it, you are doing a disservice to officiating. We can only call a penalty that we see with out own eyes. How about a receiver and defender running down field, they are close, but you cannot see that the defender is holding his arm down because you are blocked from the view by his body. You see the receiver does not put up both hands to catch the ball, and he's yelling about it after the play. You know something must have happened (like you know in your example that the cookie was grasped but you did not see it) do you throw a flag? If you cannot see the action that you are going to penalize, you should never throw the flag because you never have see the illegal activity.

I'll solve the riddle for you -- he doesn't officiate at all.

This whole conversation has been entertaining in a "how many angles can dance on the head of a pin" kind of way.

None of us actually saw it! Someone came here and asked about a penalty given in a game for "pulling the pile", and asked how that could be. What else can any of post on but inferences? The official apparently didn't specify which type of illegal use of hands it was, but I think we can all infer it was some type. Does it really matter, when all possibilities are covered?