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-   -   Illegal forward pass on 4th down (https://forum.officiating.com/football/82919-illegal-forward-pass-4th-down.html)

wyo-referee Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:19am

Illegal forward pass on 4th down
 
A1 is running for the goal line on 4th down, as he's getting tackled he throws the ball forward from the 3 yd. line and A2 catches it in the endzone.
B has to take the penalty to keep the score from happening. So is it 1st and 10 from the 8 for team B?

Rich Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:38am

Quote:

Originally Posted by wyo-referee (Post 797222)
A1 is running for the goal line on 4th down, as he's getting tackled he throws the ball forward from the 3 yd. line and A2 catches it in the endzone.
B has to take the penalty to keep the score from happening. So is it 1st and 10 from the 8 for team B?

I'm assuming it was 4th and goal and the pass was from beyond the line of scrimmage (or an otherwise illegal pass).

Yes. 1st and 10 for B on the 8 yard line.

CT1 Fri Nov 04, 2011 01:07pm

Note that even though a pass was thrown, this is a running play. Basic spot is end of the run (where the QB threw from). 5 yard penalty plus loss of down.

Welpe Fri Nov 04, 2011 01:13pm

It depends where the line to gain was. Did they make the line to gain after the penalty was enforced? If so, 1st and 10 for A 5 yards from the spot of the foul. If not, then 1st and 10 for B 5 yards from the spot of the foul.

mbyron Fri Nov 04, 2011 01:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 797231)
It depends where the line to gain was. Did they make the line to gain after the penalty was enforced? If so, 1st and 10 for A 5 yards from the spot of the foul. If not, then 1st and 10 for B 5 yards from the spot of the foul.

Good point: just because the foul carries loss of down, A can keep the ball if they achieve the LTG after enforcement.

Loss of down is not an automatic turnover on 4th down, it is simply that we will not replay 4th down.

Welpe Fri Nov 04, 2011 01:56pm

Small correction if they made the LTG, it will be 1st and Goal for A in this situation.

Rich Fri Nov 04, 2011 02:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 797231)
It depends where the line to gain was. Did they make the line to gain after the penalty was enforced? If so, 1st and 10 for A 5 yards from the spot of the foul. If not, then 1st and 10 for B 5 yards from the spot of the foul.

It's why I added the assumption I made. The spot of the illegal pass would have to be 5 yards beyond the LTG for A to keep the football.

Robert Goodman Fri Nov 04, 2011 03:01pm

And the period is not extended.

Rich Fri Nov 04, 2011 05:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman (Post 797251)
And the period is not extended.

Right. This is the loophole the NFHS closed when they eliminated accepted LOD fouls as one that require an untimed down be played.

JugglingReferee Sat Nov 05, 2011 06:57am

Canadian Ruling
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wyo-referee (Post 797222)
A1 is running for the goal line on 4th down, as he's getting tackled he throws the ball forward from the 3 yd. line and A2 catches it in the endzone.
B has to take the penalty to keep the score from happening. So is it 1st and 10 from the 8 for team B?

CANADIAN RULING:

If it's possible that the ball carrier thought he was behind the line of scrimmage, but was beyond the line of scrimmage, enforce as an illegal forward pass. 10 yards from the PLS, repeat the down.

Otherwise, enforce as an offside pass subject to penalty. Downs continue at the spot of forward pass. Note that this is a "violation", and not a foul, therefore Team A (or B if yards were not gained) does not get one more play should time expire during this play. Since it was 4th down, we need to look to see if yards were gained at the 3 yard line. If so, A gets a new series; and if not, it is B's ball providing that time did not expire during the play.


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