Punt Return Penalty
 

Last week, our Featherweight (U10, below 100#) team was set to receive a punt. We have had trouble blocking on these, so we put two receivers back to receive and brought another two about fifteen yards behind the LOS. At this level, we are not allowed to rush the punter. The other team kicked it and as soon as one of our boys touched the ball, a ref blew the whistle and tossed his flag. He announced an illegal formation penalty and marked it 10 yards from the spot of the touch.

Our league is the TCYFL and the officiating is usually excellent. The crews (3 man) typically work hard and communicate well. On this occasion, they chose not to explain and told us they would address it after the game. We won and I always make it a point to thank the crew. When I did, I asked if they could clarify the call. I was told that we can only have two receivers back. We follow Fed rules with some exceptions for safety and participation. Is their ruling correct? Thank you in advance for the help.

Mike, there is no Fed prohibition on the receiving team's formation at all. Unfortunately I think you got caught up by one of those local rules.

NFHS rules impose no restrictions on where B/R players line up other than being on their side of the ball. Either there's a league rule or the officials made stuff up.

I have officiated in this league in the past, you need to have 8 on the line and only 3 back for punts at your level. Here is a copy from the rule book (see Bold section):

Section 13. Featherweight Level Rules
A. Punting
A team must inform its opponent and the officials of their intention to punt.
Contact may not occur on a punt until after the ball has been punted. This is a free kick
with no rush allowed. The punter must kick the ball from a minimum of five (5) yards
behind the line of scrimmage. The punting team must line up in a punt formation and snap
the ball from the center position. There will be no live action until the ball is kicked.
However, if the snap is errant, the ball must be kicked from a minimum of five (5) yards
behind the line of scrimmage. The punter may not walk up and take the ball directly from
the center and walk back with it. A long snap must be attempted on every punt. The
receiving team must line up with eight (8) players on the line of scrimmage and three (3)
players in the secondary.

Could I make a suggestion? For potential local rule variations, why not contact your local supervisor of officials instead of throwing your organization's name out for scrutiny on a national message board. The vast majority of people here probably have no idea what the TCYFL is nor what local variations they use no more than I expect them to know about the WNCYL and its differences.

Better yet, obtain a copy of those local rules and review them at your coaches meeting in pre-season.

Game day is a bad day to be learning something.

Just an FYI, I downloaded the rulebook from the league's website and pasted the rule. It was fairly easy to find. I have worked in that league in previous years, so I was familiar with the rules, but your point is very well taken.

As has been pointed out, you must have 8 on the line when receiving punts at this level in the TCYFL. Unfortunately, the rules don't indicate what the penalty should be for such an infraction, but I doubt I'd have gone with 10 yards from where the ball was received. It has to be a foul at the snap, I'd probably go with 5 yards but it wouldn't be PSK. If the offense accepted the penalty, it would be 5 yards replay 4th down (or first down if the LTG was reached).

I've never considered how I would penalize this, because at this level and below I won't blow the ball ready until both teams are lined up legally.

Ditto, I would always be telling everyone 8 on the line, three back before the play...let them get the kiddos lined up

Sure we do - I used to work there. It's "The Colony Youth Football League" and it's based in northwest Dallas, Texas. Surely there's only one of this acronym out there. :rolleyes:

(That said, +1 to HLin NC - questions about local rules should go to those localities. If you're going to blast your local league's insane rules (something we all do from time to time, self included), don't mention the org.)

Heh...in our 11.5Us game to defend a punt, the officials made us line up with 4 on the DL instead of the 3 I'd coached them to...and which we'd used in the previous 2 games with no problem!

To tell the truth, I'm really never sure which rules are official as administered in our organiz'n, and which ones are just administered that way because of officials' misunderstanding. This season they seem to be putting emphasis on illegal formation, which they whistle as the ball is snapped. That may be our organiz'n rule, or maybe the officials just misinterpret Fed rules that way; I suspect the former, to give the coaches and kids a break, because it's coming up a lot and it'd be pretty awful to allow play to proceed and team B decline the penalty.

If the TCYFL is who I think they are, they have a lot of idiosyncratic rules.

There is no 'local supervisor of officials' available to us. Multiple assignors fill these games and I know most. I spoke directly with the league director about rules being misapplied this season and he credited it to official's inexperience and inconsistency between assignors. This was an away game for us and the crew was all non-varsity guys. I suspect that a lack knowledge of appropriate penalty was the culprit. As a staff, we don't argue calls in this league. As a fellow official, I respect that they may make mistakes. I simply sought clarification from the board.

I saw the rule on our house site but as another mentioned, no penalty was mentioned. Further, scrutiny is applicable - it is not a blemish on the league, as I praised the officials here and have prior on this site. I find the vast majority of them to be excellent and for another to insinuate that I blasted them or disparaged the league is wholly inaccurate and a bit thin skinned. For the record, I just became an IHSA football official this year as a way to familiarize myself with NFHS rules. I could not find relevant rules within their books so I asked here. As was evidenced by other posts, the officials likely erred in assessing penalty. Hopefully they will now learn something. I did and appreciate the help from those of you who offered it.

Most of the guys we see do this. At the beginning of the game, the crew informed us that as this was the last regular season game, they would be calling things tight. As you know, the typical crew at this level will remind receivers that they are lined up incorrectly, prevent the center from being touched on punts/PATs, explain penalties, etc. You guys do a great job of this and the game still moves along. I appreciae the effort and clarification of this rule. Our playoffs begin this weekend so the help is timely.

This is the reason I cannot stand these league rules. They are not always made clear to the officials and they have no real rules basis. Then the people that write them usually do not think of all the applications like what is the penalty if this is illegal? This is a recipe for disaster.

Peace

I presume the notation U10 means "Under age 10", and at this level "local rules" likely have either some instructional or safety logic behind them. It sounds like you followed an appropriate procedure in asking for clarification, as did the officials in giving you an answer, as well as offering to explain further later. Ofter sharing different opinions about rule details, on the field during a game between adults, serves mainly to only bore and distract young players and detract from the game.

The objective, obviously, is to understand what is correct so mistakes are not repeated, and often officials don't have the opportunity to delve into such rules as deeply as they normally would to understand the intent, the reason, the logic, etc of NFHS rules. Any discussions related to the value or rationality of a "local" rule, might best be directed at the organization producing the rules, who would hopefully be able to explain their intent and purpose.

Well stated, thank you. It is refreshing to see officials treat each other with dignity, especially when one is trying to seek guidance.

I sent an email regarding this matter, to the league and await their reply. While at practice today, a coach from another level (he coached Featherweight a few years ago) explained what he knew to be the rule change. Apparently, because there is no rush, the league felt it was an unfair advantage to allow the receiving team to drop back enough players to form a wall/wedge. Since instruction and safety are the keys to this level, I buy his thinking. Heck, that was why I was dropping back my extra back in the first place - our blocking needs work. If I hear differently from the league I will share their rationale with the board. Our TCYFL encourages feedback each Spring so they can make the rules more conducive to youth play in our area. I'm sure some of you will have insight.

Frequently they're "instructional" in the sense of reducing the amount of instruction the coaches have to do. In many cases the organiz'n allows us very little practice time, so they simplify the game by taking out certain situations we'd otherwise have to prepare for. You see the same thing in college & pro all star games.

In our case it's not that, because neither team is allowed to cross their line of scrimmage, and the ball is dead where it comes into any player's possession, the spot being the farthest point toward R's end the ball was touched at (if no touchback). I tell our players spread out to field the ball that knocking it forward is as good as catching it. They just want to limit the number of players we have back there to make them cover more of the field each.

Here is part of what I received from a rule interpreter this morning.

He added

You might suggest, to your interpreter, explaining the logic behind this and every "local" rule as points of emphasis to your coaches, might reduce the number of times you need to deal with it with officials.

You read my mind! My response email said that very thing. Coaches need to be aware and officials consistent and informed.

I believe that if I'm going to take the money of a program, it's up to me to know the rules.

Youth football programs have added so many local rules that the game (in some instances) hardly resembles football.

I'd rather stay home.

At least with your league, it sounds like if I asked for the rules in advance, I could get them.

Not the same everywhere and that's what's frustrating, as if those little stickers on the helmet should tell me that the player can't run the ball or that the line backs have to be 4 yards off the line. Why would I know such things when nobody provides written copies of the rules?

Or they change them mid-season & forget to notify us.

What your interp said about the play not starting is what I was mentioning earlier. I don't care if it is week 1 or the champ games with this level I would make sure that they are 100% lined up correctly on these punts rather than throw a flag...

I agree and mentioned it earlier. Thanks again for noting how being proactive at this level will help keep these players around for football in the future. Enjoy your games this weekend.

Mike

It is also not like everyone that works a game at one of these leagues is working a game normally in that league. It is not totally surprising that a day before or the night before someone is asked to cover one of these games. It is possible that officials did not even know anything about a local rule or knew there something they needed to address. It is usually when you get to the field or get to that situation and then you find out there is some special rule you have to enforce.

Peace

Which is why it doesn't bother me at all when I miss one of these weird rules. I do the best I can, but if they think I can see if a LB is 4 yards off or 3 yards off with 3 officials on the field, they're crazy.

Typical "let's make up rules for the good of the kids" stupidity. Reminds me of all the house rules that local Little Leagues try to put in place and then complain when we don't enforce them in the tournament.

This is why I *rarely* work youth games and only if they're close to the house and the teams are really desperate.

I agree and one of the reasons I am not available for these games either. Then again Saturdays and Sundays have either other football games going on or personal things I would rather do.

Peace

Several years ago I was assigned to work a local Div III JV game on a Wednesday afternoon. The Referee assigned had been the Referee the previous Saturday at Notre Dame. Before the game I asked why he was assigned to this contest, he replied, "to get in snaps to be ready for the coming weekend".

Youth football can certainly be a challenge, but presents enormous opportunity to hone "people" skills, that are so critical at higher levels, as well as gaining experience in dealing with and responding to, a much higher probability of totally unexpected situations.

Beyond that, you might even help direct some players, or even young coaches, to paths of behavior you may be happy they took, at some future point at a higher level of competition. Officiating allows us to take a lot away from the game, at different points the game needs us to pay the piper.

ajmc,

Availability has little to do with not wanting to see plays. I do not know about you, but I have things going on with officiating during the week that has nothing to do with football officiating and have to answer to more people if I am not available to them. I teach a basketball class for over a month in the fall, I am a President of basketball division that meets every week and I must attend and I try to attend meetings of a couple other associations I belong to during the week as well. Maybe that D1 official does not work other sports, but me and others do. Also around here D1 JV games are on Sundays and Mondays, I could not work all of them if I wanted to and I have worked a couple of those games this past year including last Sunday. And I do not have children or direct family obligations either like many of my fellow officials do. I know guys that claim they would not have a wife anymore if they worked most days of the week no matter what the sport, our families are more important. Not everyone's availability is based on not wanting to work a level. Much of my availability is based on what is going on my church and what I do in college on weekends. I could make more money if officiating was my only obligation, but for me it is not. Just like this weekend where I am going to celebrate a family event on Saturday and I have a college basketball staff meeting on Sunday morning and I will be gone most of the tonight working post season football. All of this while missing my Cardinals play in Game 7. :D Everyone cannot be everywhere.

Peace

Now that this has taken a turn towards why work youth games, I'll tell you why I do it:

There are a couple of reasons, first and foremost, I enjoy being on the football field. Be it a Friday night Varsity contest, or the youth games I work on the weekends, it is something I love doing, and seeing the season is so short, I do not turn down the opportunity to be out there.

Second, I enjoy helping the kids and coaches enjoy the game. I cannot tell you how many times in the past two weeks I've had a coach come up and tell me "thanks for helping me with that illegal shift problem in week two, thanks to you the kids learned how to set correctly" or something to that effect. I coach my son's baseball team, and I know that these guys are just dad's out there so they might not know all the rules, so being proactive and helping makes me feel good.

Third, the assignor for the league I am working in is on my HS crew, so helping out a friend put the best possible officials out on the field is something that I would also do.

Last - it is a good way to get to know other officials and see how they work. I have met people at association meetings and what not, but working with them and seeing how they interact with folks is really something that you cannot get anywhere other than on the field. Who knows when that connection might be something that helps out in the future. Getting a small bump in income during the fall before Christmas is nice as well.

As with everything, there are also minuses to working these games -

Working 6 or 7 games on usually less than ideal fields can be a pain (literally)

It is mentally draining to listen to the Parents and spectators all day yelling about NFL rules to you on the fields.

It does take away from my family time. This is something that really is the worst part, but it is for 12 weeks in the fall and I do not work any other sports, so my family is fine with it, plus they come out to the field and watch and enjoy the atmosphere most weeks.

Some of the attitudes of these young kids and parents is disturbing. to see young kids out there swearing and with such huge chips on their shoulders makes me very sad. Also seeing how some parents push their kids to the point of crying is a shame. But what this does it help me to see this behavior and in reality makes me a better Dad, in my opinion.

So all in all there are positives and negatives, but I just enjoy being on the football field, so I dedicate my weekends and Friday nights in the fall to Football.

Everyone has to decide why they officiate. Just because someone thinks they can only get experience by working these games does not make it true. I learn more from video we get from coaches on our Friday games or the class I help teach in the summer or the camp I help with in the summer where officials are working 7 on 7 and some contact days. It is like I tell officials in basketball, you can often learn more from watching games and seeing the game than actually working sometimes.

Peace

Agreed, I don't necessarily think I learn much from these games, I learn more from watching my game films from Friday, it is just something I enjoy (Call me crazy :) )

My comment wasn't directed to you personally, or your situation, rather just a general suggestion that when officials choose to make themself available for officiating youth football, it can be both a self rewarding exercise and also provides an opportunity (at times involving dealing with a little disorganization and annoyance) in helping those involved understand how the game is supposed to be managed.

I really did not take it personally. But I think we need to worry more why we get out their individually, than why others get out there. We are all not motivated by the same things and if people want to work youth ball I am fine with it. If I wasn't I would not still do it from time to time. But not everyone wants to do it for the reasons you mentioned. I have also worked enough years where I have more choices than others too.

Peace