4th and 5+/-inches then Def. Encroachment
 

It's 4th and 5 + or - inches, defense encroaches, ball/LTG are not on a line/tick. What do you do? How do you make this look good?

If the HL did his job properly, then there should be a piece of tape or zip tie on the chains at 5 yards. He should know when the ball is spotted near that point on the previous down and if the ball was behind or beyond that point. If behind, then it is still 4th down, if beyond then it's 1st down and the chains are moving.

Had this happen on a 3rd and 5 (plus a few inches). Told the WH, U moved the ball, spotted it and WH called it a first down. What do you do then?

You communicate before the foul even occurs so that doesn't happen.

We communicate before the ready for play either by signal or verbally...thumbs up means the box is past the tape, thumbs down means the box is behind the tape....or "5 gets us 1!"

Communications, communications, communications..... That sort of thing should NEVER happen!:o

I did tell our WH, I ran out to the center of the field, told him we were behind the tape. U marked it off, WH looked down at the stake and said 1st down.

I figured you'd guys use the "tape" which I can understand that, so I now present Situation Bravo:

4th and 10 from A20 +/- inches, A1 runs for a TD, holding called at A30 +/- inches. How do you handle that? Again LTG/flag are not on a yardline/tick. Do you just guess? Do you measure (please don't tell me this)?

In addition to what BkBallRef said, I ask the HL to set the Box at the appropriate spot. If we started an inch or two behind the tape, he sets the Box an inch or two behind the Line to Gain. Likewise, if we started an inch or two beyond the tape, he sets the Box an inch or two beyond the Line to Gain.

Before enforcing the penalty, figure out where the ball will be placed before marking off the penalty. On a well marked field, you should be able to figure out if it's going to be a 1st down before you mark off the penalty. If it's that close or the field is not well marked, then I'd think you have to measure. I guess you could use the chains to mark off the 10 yards if the field is really poorly marked since you'll have the clip to reset them but that seems like a last ditch effort to me.

This is among the best advice that a HL can do. If the downsbox is a carded official, I even have him be responsible for telling me if it's close to that tape or not - within half a yard. If the downsbox is a volunteer, then I manage the tape noticing myself.

The Canadian mechanic is to report to the R all pertinent information which includes this type of information. It even includes info such as how the play ended. We don't say "offside 21 defence". We do say: "offside, 21 defence. The play resulted in an interception. The offence had less than 5 yards to go."

Measure what? Walk it off, place the ball, it's 4th and 10 again. Place your down marker, and then YOU know if the next play needs more or less than 10 - just like you did on the previous play.

I'm guessing he meant holding was called at the A40 -- in other words after the mark-off it would be close to a first down.

No, I'm not using the chains. I'm going to eye up the penalty yardage along with the umpire and we're going to decide if it's a first down or not and make sure the ball's spotted clearly short or clearly ahead of the line-to-gain.

+1

If he meant the 40, I agree.

We make sure we have tape on the chain pregame. Then during the game, our HL makes the decision after the ready. If he points his thumbs together (tip to tip) then we have less than 5 yds. If he places the edges of his hands together (thumbs pointing in opposite directions) we are outside the tape. We know before the snap if we're inside or outside the tape. If you're on field turf you should NEVER have to guess. Place the ball on a yard line and you'll never have to measure.

Yes, meant A40. I agree with you and this is what I would do. Curious to see what others would do since this came up in a discussion.

You tape the middle of the chain for a reason. If the downbox is past the tape - it will be a first down. If it's before the tape - the down remains the same.

If you have to - measure it as we did once this year. Just bring the chains out as you normally would do - and then look to see the if the ball is beyond the tape. If not, count the links (or otherwise determine how far the ball will be from the stake), move the stakes to the hash, and place the ball at the right distance from the stake.

Best way to make it look good is to make it look like you know what you're doing.

Ugh. This again?

I guess you're right. I only see all NFL and NCAA crews doing it. What do they know?

I believe that's only for the beginning of drives...

You can get it done the easiest on change of possessions and long gains for first downs. Generally you can usually get it on a first down outside the red zone too. If you can find a way, do it. It makes life a lot easier.

LOL. OK, coach. (PS ... look again, both Saturday and Sunday ... are you really trying to tell us, in today's day and age of instant replay and inches, that NFL referees spot the ball on the lines when the play didn't end there? Frankly that's insane. Please... watch again).

Don't get me wrong... crappy field on a Tuesday, junior high kids manning the sticks... I'm aiming for a line when possible too.

But JV, Varsity, NCAA, NFL - no way. AT MOST, on a COP.

I don't know what you watch but I rarely see a crew NOT spot a ball off a yard line.

This is correct (at least for the Pac-12). I've done the chains at my alma mater for years. The HL gives us the same briefing every week.

This is probably the #1 suggestion I've received from Umpires at the D1 and NFL levels. If at all possible on all new series (not just COP), start on a line. In very few instances does spotting the ball a couple inches forward or backward make a difference. Your wings can help a lot by marking their spot on a line.

APG is correct. The NFL definitely does not do this on scrimmage plays. There is much evidence that they do it on kicking plays with changes of possession.

Watch again... with the exception of the very first play of a drive, you're wrong.

So the NFL umpires that have said to do it whenever possible on the start of a new series were....making things up? Smoking crack? All of the above?

Watch closer. You'll notice they do this at the start of every new series. Just last week, I saw a crew mark progress in a side zone 3/4ths of a football beyond the line-to-gain which was right on a marked hash. After signaling the first down, the ball was relayed to the umpire who then set the ball BACK to the hash which was the original line-to-gain and the chains were set there.

I've seen many times where forward progress is marked where it is, without starting on an integral yard line.

Our crew always starts on a yard line except for one turf field in the area that doesn't have hash marks. When the HL or LJ are marking progress on a long run that is way past the LTG they always stop on the closest tick. It all works out in the game and nobody seems to notice and it makes life easier for all.

The advice I've heard from DI and NFL guys is to start a new series on a yard line "when possible". Of course, this means that there are times when it is not possible to do so, and part of the art is knowing when it's possible and when it's not possible.

But anyway, this thread has apparently become a series of "Yeah they do" vs "No they don't" posts... RadioBlue, can you find a video clip of a play similar to what you've just described and post it for us to see?

I'd doubt it, but I'll give it a shot. I do remember it was somewhere between the -30 and midfield. In that situation, no one is going to care much about eight inches. (If only I could remember what game I was watching when I saw it.)

The math teacher in me had to correct this.

But I do agree with most of the conversation that working as an L, setting the chains on a yard line does make it a lot easier when working with the injured (read physically) JV/Varsity players who have no clue what they are doing. I have not watched close enough on NCAA/NFL games to see if this happens at those levels.

Thanks.