Obligatory 16 yard Hail-mary video
 

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1. ILLEGAL FORWARD PASS
a. Pass after team possession has changed a: END
during the down. Loss of 5 Yards OF
b. Pass from beyond the neutral zone. RUN
c. Pass intentionally thrown into an area not b, c, d and e:
occupied by eligible offensive receiver. Loss of 5 yards
d. Pass intentionally thrown to save loss of and
yardage or conserve time. Loss of Down
EXCEPTION: It is legal to conserve time by
intentionally throwing the ball forward to
the ground immediately after receiving a
direct hand-to-hand snap.
e. A second or subsequent forward pass
during the down


I think table 7-5-2 d should be edited to say "incomplete" just like rule 7-5-2d does.

What's your point?

Nothing in this video could possibly lead you to believe this is an illegal forward pass or intentional grounding.

Really confused with what any of what you posted bigjohn has to do with the video. :confused:

By what is in the table it would be an illegal pass. It was thrown to save time or yardage, in the rule the word "incomplete" makes it a legal pass because even though the pass was thrown to save a sack it was not incomplete. I am saying if you only looked at the table with this play you could rule IG.

The term "Intentional Grounding" implies that the ball hit the ground, genius.

Coach - Are you trying to say the pass was illegal as it would have been called int grounding IF it had fallen incomplete? IF a frog had wings he wouldn't be dragging his butt on the ground.

You are way too literalistic on the rules

I also say the runner was down before the pass.

ART. 2 . . . The ball becomes dead and the down is ended:
a. When a runner goes out of bounds, is held so his forward progress is
stopped or allows any part of his person other than hand or foot to touch
the ground.

I am just saying the word INCOMPLETE is in the rule but not the table. If the word INCOMPLETE was not in the rule would you say this is IG?

I don't think bigjohn is contesting the ruling from the video. I think he is pointing out an editorial error in the rulebook.

Rule 7-5-2-d states:
Table 7-5-2-d states:
I don't believe anyone would ever rule the play in the video as IG, but there are officials who read the rule book literally and may inexplicably rule it IG.

The table should be edited to reflect the rule.

What part of his body was touching the ground before the ball was released?

Don't you have anything better to do than to regurgitate the same crap you used to post over on the NFHS Forum? (and any other forum you can get your hands on)


Edit -- Also regurgitated from this forum in 2007.

is held so his forward progress is
stopped

Mike there are 3 ways to be down, no?

Isn't (almost) EVERY pass INTENTIONALLY thrown to avoid loss of yardage? ;)

I know you're trolling, but I can't resist...
If you're going to say that his forward progress is stopped on this play, then you could also argue that a quaterback standing motionless in the pocket is also down (after all, his 'forward progress' is stopped if he's just standing there, right?).

Some are thrown to gain yardage. :p

But not the way the game was played that I officiated last night! :eek:

It's a judgement call. Judgement is something that all of us use every week. It's something which is refined and hammered and polished week in, and week out by those of us who work hard to do so.

It's also something you obviously lack.

John, I know you're smarter than this.

For there to be Intentional Grounding, the ball has to hit the ground -- IOW, incomplete.

the rule says, " held" so that his forward progress is stopped.

I know it is a judgement call but don't you think he was stopped? Would you defend that call?


There are other illegal forward passes besides GROUNDING!

and since the ball was dead.

USC on A's QB

ART. 2 . . . When the ball becomes dead in possession of a player, he shall not:
a. Intentionally kick the ball.
b. Spike the ball into the ground.
c. Throw the ball high into the air or from the field of play or end zone.
d. Intentionally fail to place the ball on the ground or immediately return it to
a nearby official.

R throws a flag for IG, and then his second flag for USC.

So not only are we taking away a touchdown, we are going to enforce a loss of down, and then 15 more yards on top of that, giving: 4D/31 @ B-35. :D :eek:

no IG, he was down.

If he was down, how can you have an IFP? The play was over.

I disagree. Neither of his knees touched the ground before he threw the ball.

I also wouldn't rule that forward progress was stopped. Mike Carey properly let Eli Manning play through an in-the grasp situation that is now called among the best non-calls in Super Bowl history.

I must say...this is trolling at the next level. Can't really believe this is being entertained.

I appreciate the kudos! APG. It is fun to think outside the box sometimes though don't you think?

I do think you could make a case for ball being dead before the pass, though. :)

A very poor case which would only be substantiated with a very, very quick whistle.

Some of work games in the real world.

BJ is more than capable of being an idiot completely on his own... you don't have to help. In this case, you're simply wrong - so great job supporting his case. Congrats.

(Can't find where you're wrong and your sitch does not fit the rule? Look for the word "held" in that rule if you can't.)

Here's the deal... The wording of the rule is wrong. BJ has pointed that out (about 12 times). He is right that the wording of this rule, to be completely correct, needs the word "incomplete" in the table section of the rule.

There. I've just agreed with BJ.

I think I just threw up a little.

That is not correct. It is a foul to intentionally throw a forward pass into an area not occupied by an eligible offensive receiver. It does not matter if the ball hits the ground.

4th down, A12 intentionally throws to an area not occupied by an eligible receiver. B20 catches the pass, runs and fumbles the ball. A recovers.

A12 fouled when he threw the pass. B will accept the penalty, down will not be repeated. B will take the ball.

bigjohn:


the rule says, " held" so that his forward progress is stopped.
__________________________________________________ _______________

1) At what point was the QB "held"....even for a split second...? He was spinning out of the tackle, and almost escaped. I can almost assure you that you and your crew would have the record for IW's if you ever wore the stripes, judging by your stance here.

2) Again....would someone please start a badminton thread so BJ can apply some real insight to something.

3) Suppose we had a HC tackle at the goal line too BJ...? Shoot us some insight. Your comments are better than the Sunday comics.

I agree great no call on the Miracle play!! Mike and Don Carey support our local association with instructional advice and come to our annual officials banquet every year. We are very fortunate that these gentlemen take the time to help our program.

As for Big John I think he is most definitley a troll

How can anyone say that the pass was thrown to avoid loss of yardage? If I am looking at the right video, it appears to me that the pass was thrown to an area occupied by an eligible receiver, and caught by that receiver. That's one of the ways to avoid a foul, right? Of course I'm no NF official, but NCAA that takes away IG when you get the ball to the area of a receiver.

No, you can't. There's argument and advocacy, and then there's stupidity. Don't confuse them.

I think Mike Carey ran to the wrong goal line to set up for a kickoff today. The camera caught him running the other way with an embarrassed smirk on his face. Even the top dogs have brain cramps sometimes.

When we do that in our local games here, the accepted mechanic is to pick up the piece of glass on the ground, so safety sake. :D