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mtridge Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:13am

penalty enforcement procedure
 
By the rule book is a player allowed to consult with a coach as w the rhether or not to acceprt a penalty? I know it says a time out cannot be taken but I have not seen a definitive answer on this.

jTheUmp Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:27am

The Rule:
Quote:

Originally Posted by NFHS 10.1.1
ART. 1 . . . When a foul occurs during a live ball, the referee shall, at the end of the down, notify both captains. He shall inform the captain of the offended team regarding the rights of penalty acceptance or declination and shall indicate to him the number of the ensuing down, distance to be gained, and status of the ball for each available choice. The distance penalty for any foul may be declined. If the penalty is declined or if there is a double foul, there is no loss of distance. In case of a double foul, the captains are not consulted since the penalties offset. The captain's choice of options may not be revoked. Decisions involving penalties shall be made before any charged time-out is granted either team.

Nothing in there that says that the captain is not allowed to consult with the coach; therefore, captain-coach consultation is allowed.

In practice, officials will just automatically accept/decline the penalty in 'obvious' situations (false start, encroachment, DPI/OPI, etc). If there's a non-obvious choice to be made (ie: holding called on a 3rd and 2 where the runner was stopped short of the line to gain at the edge of field goal range), the referee will often look directly to the coach for his choice, in the interests of expediency.

mbyron Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jTheUmp (Post 787440)
Nothing in there that says that the captain is not allowed to consult with the coach; therefore, captain-coach consultation is allowed.

In practice, officials will just automatically accept/decline the penalty in 'obvious' situations (false start, encroachment, DPI/OPI, etc). If there's a non-obvious choice to be made (ie: holding called on a 3rd and 2 where the runner was stopped short of the line to gain at the edge of field goal range), the referee will often look directly to the coach for his choice, in the interests of expediency.

Agree.

The practice of enforcing without consulting captains in the 98% of cases that are obvious is the prescribed mechanic in Ohio. Saves a great deal of time.

HLin NC Tue Sep 13, 2011 02:08pm

9-8-1f NOTE: Between downs, communications between players and coaches near the sideline are not an unauthorized conference.

I'd say once the referee has the captain's attention and explained the options, the time to confer with the coach is over.

Rich Tue Sep 13, 2011 04:31pm

I typically ask within earshot of the coach if it's confusing. Let the coach decide. Nothing good can come from letting a kid choose the wrong option.

Robert Goodman Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:41am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 787539)
Nothing good can come from letting a kid choose the wrong option.

No, one good thing can happen: the kid can learn more about football.

Anyway, I find it somewhat amusing this question was even asked. Although there were a couple of eras in football's hx wherein the rules makers tried to prevent communication from non-players to players (no coaching from the sideline), it was learned that even if such is a desideratum, it is not practicably enforcible. Today the only related concern is whether the game is being delayed. Chances are that if the captain confers with a coach, the game will be less delayed than otherwise!

MD Longhorn Wed Sep 14, 2011 01:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HLin NC (Post 787513)
9-8-1f NOTE: Between downs, communications between players and coaches near the sideline are not an unauthorized conference.

I'd say once the referee has the captain's attention and explained the options, the time to confer with the coach is over.

Muhhh... what? You just quoted a rule that says players and coaches can talk with each other between downs to justify not letting them talk to each other. Let me reiterate... Muhhh... what?

MD Longhorn Wed Sep 14, 2011 01:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman (Post 787728)
No, one good thing can happen: the kid can learn more about football.

Not our job. Perhaps a peripheral benefit from us doing our jobs right... but not a driving factor in doing our jobs at all.

HLin NC Wed Sep 14, 2011 01:13pm

I'm quoting the rule because it IS possible to communicate between downs so thus coming by the sideline to get guidance would be ok. However we all know he can't call timeout to go consult. I don't know too may WH's that that once the captain is in his presence and the options are being explained, it would be too late to then go over to the sideline to ask. The WH is going to want an answer. Unless the captain can look over and read lips or hear them screaming, he's locked in.

Maybe I should have typed more the first time.

umpirebob71 Wed Sep 14, 2011 01:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman (Post 787728)
No, one good thing can happen: the kid can learn more about football.

Anyway, I find it somewhat amusing this question was even asked. Although there were a couple of eras in football's hx wherein the rules makers tried to prevent communication from non-players to players (no coaching from the sideline), it was learned that even if such is a desideratum, it is not practicably enforcible. Today the only related concern is whether the game is being delayed. Chances are that if the captain confers with a coach, the game will be less delayed than otherwise!

"Desideratum?" Alright, where's my dictionary? :D

bigjohn Wed Sep 14, 2011 01:15pm

I know most officials in our area ask the coaches if they want to take or decline a penalty before they ever say anything to the captains.

I know this is true in the NFL, most officials just ask the coach.

MD Longhorn Wed Sep 14, 2011 01:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HLin NC (Post 787749)
I'm quoting the rule because it IS possible to communicate between downs so thus coming by the sideline to get guidance would be ok. However we all know he can't call timeout to go consult. I don't know too may WH's that that once the captain is in his presence and the options are being explained, it would be too late to then go over to the sideline to ask. The WH is going to want an answer. Unless the captain can look over and read lips or hear them screaming, he's locked in.

Maybe I should have typed more the first time.

Must be different in your area. I know no WH's that are going to force a kid to make a call without getting input from the coach. Never have. I grant that it's frustrating to watch them yell back and forth sometimes - but I cannot recall EVER seeing a WH cut off this conversation and demand an answer. I think it's foolish to do so as well. No one is saying let them go to the sideline...


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