Hey to you all, is this a place to talk about Maori (or Aotearoa or New Zealand) football, or is it American football only? Wanted to know if there are any Ki-o-Rahi leagues ooutside of New Zealand? Any ex-pat kiwis spreading the game? Hey great site!

Any arguments to Ki-o-Rahi being the absolute toughest, mentally and physically, of all the football codes?

Well let me ask you something , you guys have PSK ?

This is for American Football.

Isn't Taha Maori some type of marinated meat that you put on skewers and barbecue?

Oh, and we have our own version of Ki-o-Rahi; it's called WWF and not related to football (only to politics aka Ventura)!!

Happy Trails!

Thanks for the great welcome JMN, yes Taha Maori could be marinated meat, and in that case you'd be cannibalistic - I understand how names from a foreign culture such as ours may be easily derogatorily interpreted, honest mistake (I hope?)

James Neil could you fill me in with the meaning of PSK please?

In ki-o-rahi football we don't use any protective gear and there is no tackle rule, hence if you get hit well it is usually lights out! When did the protective gear start coming in with American football?

After the first few deaths. '25 or so. Deaths have been decreased dramatically since.

Hi ABoselli, thanks for the info but I would have thought it was more a consumerism thing if only (relatively speaking) 25 have died.Do the companies like their gear to be displayed and do the players like to be all suited up (for whatever reasons?)

Besides the sport of Ki-o-Rahi which was banned by missionaries in NZ in the early 1800's because it was so rough (it basically went underground and has now resurfaced in a much tamer form), we also play rugby union which is a high contact game and claims on average 6 lives EVERY year (since its inception here over 100yrs ago). If you compare our population stats with Americas our 'death rate' is far higher and yet our players still fearlessly play the game without armour or protective equipment. And Ki-o-Rahi is far more brutal than rugby (still no armour worn)!

Just over the ditch our Australian neighbours play their version of rugby, called rugby league and that too is as punishing on the body as rugby - yet still no armour is worn! And farther afield in Italy their version of football is called couchio where it is legal to punch and hack and yet still no armour is worn?!

Is it our psyche or are their other reasons for so much protective gear worn in the American version of football?

[Edited by Taha Maori on Jan 31st, 2003 at 03:48 PM]

Have you ever seen Shaq play basketball? That's often as brutal as you describe without any armour.

'25 meant 1925 was the advent of equipment (or around there) which cut the number of deaths signigicantly. The threat of mortal injury tends to disuade young people from taking up certain sports. So American football would not have to be forced 'underground', a modicum of safety was introduced.

It helped. It's pretty popular these days.

to watch or play?
 

Hi, is American football popular going by the numbers of kids & adults playing it or by the numbers of 'bums on seats' who watch it being played? & what exactly is PSK? Eager to know!

If you freakin' guys are so tough why don't you go take out Iraq and North Korea instead of being like the rest of the world and leaving it up to the "wimps" of the USA who play some sport wearing protective equipment???

You want us to say."Gee you dudes are tough!!!" ? OK, I'll say it. "Gee, you FOOLS are tough!!!"

PSK refers to a concept of post scrimage kick enforcement which applies to a special way of enforcing some fouls which take place during a scrimmage kick. But, since your "sport" apparently does not involve much refereeing I doubt there is anything similar to the concept.

PS: The reason we wear equipment is called "civilization".

Thanks for that TXMike, I thought as a "civilized" country the US wouldn't go to war, where deathrates will be enormous, just to grab someone elses oil? So I guess it depends what you mean by "civilised"?????? Or is "civilised" just used in the context of sport here?

But your wide of the mark with what I am actually talking about and what other posters are up with.

Its why certain populations choose to participate in the sports of varying degrees of physical contact. It is really an academic exploration into the psyche of nationhood.I'm discussing the 'toughness' of the sport that has evolved not questioning your manhood or ability to play sports of varying 'toughness'.

And goodluck to the forces in the Persian Gulf I'm sure that will be one tough assignment! Like the Dallas Cowboys taking on Vermont elementary school?

P.S. has the oil pipeline been finished yet, from Russia across Afghanistan to the sea port?




[Edited by Taha Maori on Feb 1st, 2003 at 07:28 AM]

Maori, this is a football board for officials of the American Football game. I know nothing about the Maori version of rugby, nor do I care to. Not that it is bad, it just doesn't interest me.

On another note, you need to get your facts straight before casting perjorative comments about the U.S. role in world politics.

First, the U.S. doesn't need any more oil. If we did, it would be far easier to get in Russia, around the Caspian Sea and in our own Alaskan and Gulf of Mexico reserves, which are estimated as some of the biggest in the world. Second, the U.S. didn't ask to be the world's policeman. We fill the role for the U.N., as we are the only country with the armed forces to do it. The Iraq issue is very simple. They invaded a country illegally. The U.N. (not the U.S.) removed them from that country, decimated their military and negotiated 16 resolutions over a period of 10 years as a way to keep from having to take over the Iraqi infrastructure. Saddam Hussein and his government have broken every resolution, each of which would be a justification for the U.N. to complete the war that the resolutions postponed. Finally, Iraq has a bunch of nasty stuff, which they have no problem using, that has yet to be accounted for in accordance with the resolutions they violated. In other words, they are hiding it. They agreed to give it up and didn't. They also happen to be in bed with terrorist groups that are trying to kill western (US, EU, Austrailia, etc.) people.

If you feel better demonizing the U.S., then go ahead. We have made our share of mistakes as a country, just like the rest of the world. But please get your facts straight and do some research before you regurgitate what the media is feeding you.

As to equipment in football, it is pretty simple. Players are an investment in time, effort and money. Equipment protects the investment and allows for a better product on the field. Rugby is rougher, but the collisions in American Football are much more violent, because of the strength, size and speed of the players. The are very different games, and it's kind of like comparing apples to oranges.

sleeper I couldn't agree with you more. first of all ruby or whatever type of football maori is doesn't have no where near the contact hits we have here in america. american football is much faster then rugby thats for sure and the hits are much harder. heck I still see kids playing tackle football without equipment everyday in the parking lots and streets here in philadelphia. rugby is a game of chase the football more then tackle the runner anyway, hell most tackles aren't even hard hits in rugby. I'm willing to bet that this guy is an american who is just trying to get people mad, hell how else would he have known that the cowboys couldn't beat a vermont high school team.

I don't know, it's pretty common knowledge that the Cowboys couldn't been a good JV team this year, much less a varsity team :). It appears, from his note, he is an ex-pat here in the U.S. I don't debate rugby is rough, but it is a different sport. Rugby is a game of endurance and continuous contact. American Football is a game of speed and agility with less contact, but higher impact collisions. I think he is showing his ignorance on several levels.

Hi team, accept this as a sincere apology, I may have gone too far in my past rhetoric, but how did this strand get onto politics...

TXmike "If you freakin' guys are so tough why don't you go take out Iraq and North Korea instead of being like the rest of the world and leaving it up to the "wimps" of the USA who play some sport wearing protective equipment??? (end quote)

I have merely 'surfed' onto this site and wasn't sure if it was open to all-types of football or just one form. I have read some of the other postings now and realise my mistake. In no way was I inferring that certain people are tougher (and more macho)because of the type of contact sport they play, it was really a reflection on why coountries prefer their types of football and the advent of armour.

I may have taken the bait (sinker and all) as you may see with the warm welcome I received earlier.

Yes I agree ki-o-rahi, rugby and American football (when did it change from gridiron?) are very distinct codes. Ki-o-rahi and rugby are perpetual-motion type games of 1hr and 1hr 20min respectively - therefore they are immensely aerobic in nature. AF is anaerobically based with 5 - 10sec (even 20 sec?)bursts of play with many stoppages and timeouts.

But again I was more interested in the how and why certain people and cultures arrive at their chosen football code.




[Edited by Taha Maori on Feb 4th, 2003 at 05:55 AM]

Sports reflect the society they are in and similarly the society produces their replication through sports.

Ki-o-Rahi requires immense amounts of intelligence because of its concepts.It has been described as the 'PHD' of all contact sports.

The traits of intelligence in the game are a reflection of how Maori people ingeniously think. Take for instance the way 200 semi-armed Maori defeated 1700 well armed British soldiers at Gate Pa in NZ.Their main 'weapon' was their intelligence. This battle is described by historians as the classic example through NZ history of 'intelligence (Maori) vs technology (British)'.

This critical thinking is evident in our national traditional game (Ki-o-Rahi).

I would expect some similarly critical and indepth conversation on origins and application of American Football, any decent conversation would be appreciated!

So the British bombed the hell out of the fort all night, then went in through the hole they had made, got killed by the Maori's who were alive but hiding, skedaddled out of there, but eventually, they controlled the whole place and everybody there speaks the Queen's english, plays good golf and sails well.

That's the basis of the national game - hide inside the fort and then kill whitey? Well, whatever floats your boat.

Ok if this is the level of debate? It is not uncommon to hear of fighting forces who credit their victories to strategic thinking they developed while playing sports. This is common around the world.

In this instance the post mortems credited the traditional game and its very complex concepts to the the strategising that those Maori used to turn 'certain' defeat into a victory which 'sent shockwaves around the world'.

Trench warfare was first used by Maori, this was then deployed in the Crimea and uselessly in WW1. It was used to effect by Maori but the use of trench warfare was not apt in WW1. Maori used trench warfare because they were always woefully ooutnumbered and the British could not comprehend such tactics. By the time of WW1 it was a known concept and proved fallible and its use extended the war by years!

Why would Rommel have said 'give me 3 Maori battalions and I will rule the world'? He was so impressed by the way they critically thought in battle - the same requirements are needed in the furnace of ki-o-rahi games. THe only enemy the Germans feared when it came to equal numbers or less were the Maori soldiers of the Maori Battalion. There are so many concepts in the game requiring a clever mix of physical attributes and mental agility.

You see in the traditional NZ game of Ki-o-rahi defence and attack are always changing, there are no stops or chances to evaluate from the sidelines it is one continual physical battle, with huge hits, and quick changes in tactics. The secret really is to keep thinking straight when the physical exertions are straining this ability.

The first pre-requisite for the game is intelligence because of the need to be an adaptive thinker, there are so many variables in the game. A 'dummy' cannot hope to survive with respect on the field of play.

So lets here about the pre-requisites for your sport 'ABs'?

All depends on position. Some positions require speed, others strength, smarts, good hands, quicks, technique, or a combination of some or all.

The kickers are many times foreign guys.

Same thing goes for the officials- it varies by position.

Ya , well tell me this ....do you guys have PSK ? ;)

<i>The only enemy the Germans feared when it came to equal numbers or less were the Maori soldiers of the Maori Battalion.</i>

Was that before or after they ran into Patton's 7th Army?

The Germans, man for man, were better trained and better disciplined. I thought so then and still think that man for man they were better soldiers than we were.

If we were inferior in so many areas why did we win the war?

There are many valid answers for that rhetorical question but I will give you one:

WE HAD AN ENORMOUS PRODUCTION ABILITY WHICH ABILITY WAS PROTECTED BY AN OCEAN 3000 MILES WIDE SO THAT IT WAS NEVER DAMAGED OR BOMBED.

WE OUTPRODUCED THE GERMANS AND EVERYBODY ELSE. NO MATTER HOW MUCH OF OUR EQUIPMENT WAS DESTROYED IN COMBAT WE ALWAYS HAD MORE.

As much as I hate to say it, and I do, if we and the Germans had the same equipment and the same replacement rates they might have beaten the living hell out of us. We were good but they were better!

One day I asked a German officer "How come we beat you?

His answer was "If we had one Tiger tank, you had ten Sherman tanks. If our Tiger tank destroyed 9 of the Shermans the 10th Sherman always got the Tiger Tank. We could not replace what we lost. You did so easily"

So it seems American football operates on the same principal of having (in effect) several dozen replacements in each side (on the sidelines), can you see now how sports reflect a society...or is it too clear? I'm not saying this is a good or bad thing just that sports reflect the society they evolve from. Is this a fair comment? The above sentences are from several of your veteran soldier sites. Kindest regards Taha!

Proof of the Maori Battalion's superiority. Well, for one thing, the Germans themselves said the Maori Battalion were the best fighters. They said in North Africa the sound they feared most, nore than the shelling or anything, was the sound of the MAori Battalion doing the haka. It meant they were about to be attacked by the most savage of all the Allied troops.


again from your sites! You ofcourse need to understand german to understand where Rommel was coming from. The national game of Maori is an extremely physical sport and going into battle is probably on a par to having a game! The need to continually strategise for self preservation is essential so intelligence is paramount! Also statistically more Maori fought in both world wars than any other ethnic group. Courage, intellect and ability of Maori are reflected in their playing and fighting ability. Again the sport reflects the society it is spurned from. Regards again Taha!

During the campaign seventy-three Italian prisoners were murdered by soldiers in the 45th Division. General Omar Bradley ordered two men to face a general court-martial for premeditated murder. The men's main defence was that they were obeying orders issued by Patton. In order to protect Patton from the charge of war crimes, Bradley decided to drop the investigation into the murder of the Italian soldiers.

AB's is this the Patton you refer to? Again from your own sites.

So "rules" can be transgressed as long as you can get away with them, would this be a fair reflection of American football, dressed up as gamesmanship, do you doubt AB that sport reflects the society it is embedded in?

In Ki-o-Rahi the players self ref their own game even in the heat of intense physical confrontation, they are still clear headed enough and mentally aware of the "rules". This is from the social to rep games.

Thanks for the great example of Patton, got any others?

Rebuttal and Response (long post)
 

I have been following the thread and I think I have reached my limit. Your view of history is rather warped, picking and choosing the facts that best suit whatever axe you are trying to grind. I know very little about New Zealand, so I am not even going to try to figure out what started this thread in the first place. American Football is a sport. It's that simple. It is not a socio-cultural expression of who we are, nor does it have any deeper meaning than just a pass time.

If you want to argue bravery, we have our own storys from the war. Every Congressional Medal of Honor winner has done the equivalent of the impossible. During WWII, Texas soldiers carrier their state flag, and were feared by the enemy because they were believed to be an elite unit from a seperate country that refused to die. Time and time again US soldiers beat the odds without the equipment and machinery you claimed they always had. No, we don't have a national warrior culture, but we have our heroes.

If you want to compare stories, look up the Battle of New Orleans in 1812, the Alamo, the Battle of San Jacinto, Bunker Hill, Gettysburg, Manassas, Battle of The Bulge, D-Day, and any other of the war stories. What you will find is men doing the best they can with what they have. Conversely you will also find stories about men making mistakes and losing both the battle and their life. Unlike you, I am more than willing to admit that we are not perfect, either as individuals or as soldiers.

If you want to argue millitary prowess, that is best measured by wins and losses. The US hasn't been beaten. Vietnam is an arguement, but we lost the PR battle in the press, not the war on the ground. The last time I checked, New Zealand was still a property of the crown. So, while the Maori may have been fierce warriors and brave fighters, they also lost. The US hasn't been a property of the crown since we beat the same army, just as out manned, out gunned and out manufactured as any other colony fighing for its freedom.

Germany had its manufacturing capability destroyed because they chose to pick a fight. So did Japan. Rommel got his tail kicked because he was arrogant and didn't believe he could be beaten. The supply issue was due to his superiors arrogance and when they over-extended their resources fighting a three-front war, one of which was a land-war in Russia (which history showed, yet again, couldn't be accomplished). In spite of all of your pejorative comments about the lack of US courage, intellegence or what ever you feel is lacking, you have yet to put together a cohesive arguement to support your assertions. The fact of the matter is that the US gets involved because we have to, we go in, do the job and ask for enough dirt, to quote Colin Powell, to bury our dead. We want a free world with free markets. That is why Europe and Japan were rebuilt from the ground up by US funds, that is why the US is still the largest provider of humanitarian aid in the world.

Now that we have the politics out of the way, lets address sports for a second. I have never seen the game to which you are referring. I don't know the first thing about it, which puts me at a disadvantage. I know that I enjoy watching rugby and Australian Rules Football, so I assume I would enjoy watching your game as well. You have every right to enjoy, participate in and be proud of your game. American football is a different game and comparing them would be like comparing apples and mangos. They both serve their purpose and they are both fruit, but the similarities end pretty soon after that. To say that one is better than the other is a matter of preference.

This is a Football Official's discussion board that deals in American Football. If you have questions about rules, interpretations, game management, etc., I know that there are lots of officials on here, including myself, that would love to help. If you aren't interested in officiating for this sport, please find a politics board or a general football board that debates these topics.

AMEN...

<font size=+6> <font color="#FF0000"> ...Let's get back to football!! </font></font>

I was enjoying this. It looks as if Taha Maori, under the guise of an innocent inquiry, was in fact looking for an opportunity to 1) extole the virtue, prowess and intelligence of his people by citing an obscure island game and an eventually lost war 150 years ago, known in detail to only those within a 200 mile radius 2) denigrate, ridicule and deride our game and country through anecdotes, insinuation and conjecture.

It's always in vogue to poke the 500 lb gorilla with a stick, because, after all, he is the 500 lb gorilla. People resent the big shot - especially these days.

I'm waiting for the inevitable follow up - how the Maori could have gone to the moon (if they wanted to due to their superior intelligence in ingenuity), how they could have really beaten back the British (if it had served their purpose), how they could have invented the light bulb, telephone, phonograph, defeated every major disease - if they had felt like it, due to their inherent, ingenious nature.

From what I have ever seen and heard, New Zealand is a very nice place. Very picturesque landscape and nice people. Biggest sporting event there is the America's Cup.

Welcome ABoselli, maybe your definition of 'obscure' is different from what I know it to be, we both speak english but perhaps one of us does so with 'forked tongue'or to be kinder with warped perspectives?

This is an extract from a German site, are they more up with sports and their relationships with the society they inhabit? Do they perhaps care about what happens outside their borders? You will need to get this translated and you will then garnish a little better other world perspectives on our 'insignificant' part of the world:

"Der Poi-Dance hat eine lange und interessante Entwicklungsgeschichte. Der eigentliche Ursprung dieses Tanzes liegt in Neuseeland. Vor Jahrhunderten benutzten dort die Ureinwohner (die Maoris) eine Konstruktion, um große Moa-Eier zu transportieren...Steinen gefüllt und an einer bis zu 6 Meter langen Schnur befestigt...um Flexibilität, Koordination, Reaktionsfähigkeit und Schnelligkeit zu trainieren. Dieses Training wurde „Poi-Toa“ genannt.

Der nächste Schritt in der Entwicklung war der, daß hieraus ein Spiel entstand, das „Ki-o-rahi“."

Other nations have made the connections quite openly and appreciably, we are after all a global community?

And lets keep the focus on at least the philosophy of sport as I'm sure your fellow countrypeople would appreciate, regards once again Taha Maori.

ABoselli I'm wondering if you may have some residual attitudes from the past which prevailed in American society about who should be playing football. Are you familiar with the term 'stacking' or rather do you acknowlidge it? Historically do you acknowledge that your 'suntanned' countrymen were excluded from A'ball because of segregation and were seen as being intellectually inferior, remember those (good old?) days.

The same happened in baseball and basketball, can you SEE ABoselli how sports reflect the society they are in?

NOw ABoselli which ethnic groups dominate ALL of those sports? but ofcourse its because of their physical prowess isn't it no way could/would you attribute it to intelligence? If a non 'suntanned' player makes it in the leagues the emphasis then goes on how intelligently they have overcome the odds!

And with regard to Maori inventing all those wonderful paraphenalia that you so adore we have a system of beliefs here called "kaitikitanga" which is an holistic appraisal of our environment which we believe sees us as the caretakers only of the environment for our future generations to live in - it is a huge responsobility so we try to live and preserve "papatuanuku" and "te AO" not ravish and deplete its resources as some societies (do you know of any) uncaringly do.

I will try this on you ABoselli and see how fast you balk!
Consistent with Maori living with the environment and not against it the major environmentally non-threatening developments technologically for Maori were in the area of leisure.

1)Maori independantly invented surfing.

2)They had their own form of hang-gliding (yes manned flight)called Manu tangata before the arrival of Abel Tasman and other explorers (1400's).

3)They developed several types of ball games from poi toa to ki to tapu ae to ki-o-rahi to waka poi...

4)they had snow boards before Tasman arrived

5)they developed an equivalent to your mocassins with spikes for climbing our largest mountain range - the southern alps. See "Greenstone Trails".

6)they had huge 'meets' where 5-10,000 people would congregate to play sports - all pre-European times

7)they regularly powered their way across the Pacific for thousands of miles in canoes in pre-european times without sextants, compasses etc (was it by intelligence or fluke?)


..if interested in more please don't hisitate to reply but I guess the above is about as unbelieving as stacking in football? Regards Taha.

<i>The Poi Dance has a long and interesting history of the development. The actual origin of this dance lies in New Zealand. Centuries ago there the natives (the Maoris) used a construction, in order to transport large Moa eggs... stones filled and at one up to 6 meters are enough for cord fastened... around flexibility, co-ordination, to train reactivity and speed. This training became?Poi Toa? called. The next step in the development was that that from this a play developed?Ki o rahi?." </i>

Yep, that clears it all up for me. Good old Poi dance. God Bless the Germans, fascinating insight, them being in touch with the global village and all....


Well, if we're going down a checklist of our respective people's achievements, let's see what I can muster

Maori - Hang gliding.-America - mechanized manned flight. Maori - Snow boards. ---America - telephone
Maori - spiked mocassins ---America - light bulb
Maori - canoes at sea ---America - manned space flight
Maori - kooky ball games ---America - nuclear power
Maori - umm, snow boards ---America - personal computer
Maori - uhh, oh yea, spiky mocassins---America - automobile

Yep, we sure are a bunch of dummies.

Maori - conquered people. Stayed conquered. Forced to adopt language and culture of Great Britain. Brits let them play their ancient tribal games to keep them happy. Appears to work.

America - Gave Great Britain the boot. Beat them again in 1812. Like them fine now, but their queen aint on our money. Saved the world from Nazi Germany and Japan after being sneak attacked. Turned around and rebuilt both Germany and Japan. Became the dominant cultural, economic and military power in the world.

Like to watch American football on the weekend. Don't give a rats *** about New Zealand. The eagle doesn't hunt flies - understand that one, Mr. Global Perspective?

[Edited by ABoselli on Jun 6th, 2003 at 08:04 PM]

Hey AB , you forgot one

America : PSK

LOL

This is a great discussion AB because all the ingredients for you to critically assess how American football came to evolve are right before your eyes!

As stated earlier the missionaries wanted Maori to pray day and night and to stop playing their ‘heathen’ games. However the early (pre-1830’s) British “genteel” traders and entrepreneurs saw value in the open, free flowing passing and running-with-the-ball-in-hand style of football (called Ki-o-Rahi) which the Maori played. They took these concepts back to their public schools and transformed their mob game into a running game! Instead of attributing this style of football to the “heathen” Maori they did this by inventing the fiction of William Ellis picking the ball up and running with it – and you will note AB that this fiction of William Web Ellis has at last been uncovered and those serious writers of rugby history (who aren't burdened with racial resistance)are attributing the concept of running rugby to the Maori game.That is simply why Maori and the Polynesians (South Pacific Islanders) are the best players in the world - it is traditional and comes 'naturally'.

So, and this should be easy now AB, American football evolved from which ‘insignificant’ game?

<i>So, and this should be easy now AB, American football evolved from which ‘insignificant’ game? </i>

Basketball.

The best players of what in the world. Didn't know that the Maori made up the majority of professional athletes in the world. Which sport do they dominate, other that the native version of football? I am not saying there aren't good Maori athletes, but there is a difference between opinion and documented fact. Does a Maori hold the fastest 40 time? Is a Maori the fastest or strongest person in the world? How many Maori start in professional football, basketball, baseball, soccer? Help me out here. I will gladly give you the title if you can provide evidence.

However, last time I checked, the largest contributor to at least American football is the great state of Texas. The largest contributor to professional baseball is Central America. I don't know about soccer, but I am guessing Central America or Europe. The fastest man in an American. The strongest man is from Europe (depending on how recent the last "World's Strongest Man" competition I watched was). The world's best golfer is American, as were the last several legends in the game. Australia's best golfer is better known for his chokes than his wins. The world's best basketball player lives in San Antonio. The holder of the most home runs in a season is American, so is the career homerun leader.

Did I miss a major sport? Last time I checked, US Pro teams weren't flying to NZ to scout for the upcoming season.

Like I said, national pride is a wonderful thing, but it is opinion until you have facts to back it up.

Ah-Ha Taha, I get it now! You want credit for inventing American football. Well OK, let me be the first to say thanks. I’ll also be the first to apologize for the fact that we have to police the game with officials. I’m sure that if we’d had kept to the pure Maori version of the game this wouldn’t be necessary. And guess what Taha? That’s what we’re doing here at this board. We’re American Football Officials trying to learn the difference between NCAA-PSK and National Federation-PSK. May I suggest that you join us in this honorable avocation and become an American Football Official? I figure since you guys invented the game, you will be able to clear up any confusion that anyone might have regarding any of the rules pursuant to the world's greatest game.

No Sleeper not one of those 'World Series' professional leagues where only one country fields the teams (ie American football)I'm talking about rugby where there is a legitimate World Cup involving dozens of different countries, you know the ones you and ABoselli regard as insignificant eg. 'the rest of the world'. Sleeper plug these names into your finder - try... Brooke, Jones, Bunce, Reihana, Rush, Lomu, Stanley, Tefu,....for starters

And nice evasion on the topic of how sports reflect the society they're in fellas - stacking, segregation etc (very quiet)no doubt as Bradley did with AB's Patton example many things can be ignored if you have a superiority complex!

I put in "Stanley" and got the NHL playoffs. I don't even think that's reached the southern hemisphere yet!

<i>I'm talking about rugby where there is a legitimate World Cup involving dozens of different countries, you know the ones you and ABoselli regard as insignificant </i>

I thought the real World Cup was for "Futbol", governed by FIFA, who, at last check, employed referees to police the games. It seems that sometimes these honorable men (and women) will act like they've been shot to draw a penalty, then spring to their feet after their ruse has been successfully perpetrated.

I guess the Rugby World Cup is a big deal in New Zealand, but I think any self respecting German, Brazilian, Italian or Brit will answer futbol (soccer) when asked about the most popular international game around.

As far as your Patton innuendo, let me guess - another German site? As far as discrimination in America - umm, gee, you just finding out about that? Check out the front page of any newspaper in America on any given day, and you'll find something about affirmative action, race relations, racial profiling etc etc. That's the great thing about an open society - our dirty laundry is strung up for everyone to come and inspect. Somehow, though, the Secretary of State is black, so is the national security advisor to the president, so is the most popular pitchman for Buick and Nike, as well as the general manager of many NBA teams. Who did America send to the Berlin Olympics in '36 who swept every event he entered with the purveyor of the 'master race' theory in attendance?

As far as the socio-economic underpinnings for the modern game of American football, I think you can assign it directly to the superior warrior mentality of the average American. The entire game is built upon the capture and holding of territory through a strategic balance of running and passing the ball, by use of different types of players for different purposes (infantry, air force, tanks, cavalry etc), with the winner decided by not only the best strategy, but individual athletic prowess, intelligence and dumb luck. Just as you probably don't care that the rest of the world hasn't embraced you whatever it is game, neither do we.

For your future reference, here's a list of sports that Americans don't like en masse -

Rugby, soccer, Grand Prix racing, bicycle racing, track and field, curling, every winter olympic sport except hockey and figure skating, swimming, tennis, lacrosse and cricket. There may be a few pockets of support here and there, but by and large, they don't capture tha average Americans imagination.

Here's the opening for you to state that it's because we're all racists, or war criminals.

I finally found something about this alleged court martial coverup - man, you had to dig for this one. It's a review of a very unflattering biography of Patton.

<i>Hirshson’s most damning indictment of Patton is the author’s interpretation of the effect of Patton’s bellicose speeches on his troops in Sicily. Patton’s exhortation to kill as many enemies as possible, says Hirshson, produced a debilitating effect on his Seventh Army and invited five atrocities, including a massacre of 40 prisoners at Biscari airfield and the murder of Italian civilians at a Canicatti soap factory. Patton acknowledged that a massacre occurred and directed Bradley to tell the officer involved to certify that the dead men were snipers.

To Patton, such incidents were regrettable, but in war atrocities take place and "they are dead, so nothing can be done about it." Though the officer who ordered the killings cited Patton’s order to send as many of the enemy to the infernal regions as possible as a defense in his subsequent court-martial, Hirshson’s evidence that the atrocities were directly attributable to Patton’s warlike addresses is dubious. One can not help but be reminded of Adm. William F. (Bull) Halsey’s order to his commanders to kill as many of the enemy as possible in the Pacific theater. </i>

So the guys defense was "well, he said to kill everybody, so I did" and this implicates Patton. Umm, OK.

From that same review -

<i>Was Patton a great general then? Despite Hirshson’s reservations, the answer is decidedly affirmative. Patton’s record speaks for itself. In Sicily, the American Army came of age under Patton’s forceful leadership and ruthless driving power. In Europe, Patton’s army advanced faster and farther and inflicted a greater number of casualties than any of Bradley’s four armies in 12th Army Group. In slightly more than a year of actual combat, Patton had indeed "earned his pay" in commanding troops in North Africa, Sicily and Europe. Small wonder that it was Patton whom the German commanders feared more than any other Allied commander.</i>

Except, of course, the big, bad, rugby inventing Maori. In the words of German commanders -

<i>Groß! Seine jene singenden Rugbyhalteseile wieder. Ich swear mich werde sich schießen, wenn ich zu ihrem dummen mehr kreischen hören muß. </i>

[Edited by ABoselli on Jun 9th, 2003 at 12:57 PM]

No Sleeper not one of those 'World Series' professional leagues where only one country fields the teams (ie American football)I'm talking about rugby where there is a legitimate World Cup involving dozens of different countries, you know the ones you and ABoselli regard as insignificant eg. 'the rest of the world'. Sleeper plug these names into your finder - try... Brooke, Jones, Bunce, Reihana, Rush, Lomu, Stanley, Tefu,....for starters

>>>So sports like soccer, baseball, basketball, track and field are minor sports with inferior athletes that aren't played anywhere but the U.S.? I guess we can't let facts get in the way of a good story. Instead we will hold a subset of rugby up as the paragon of virtue you purport it to be? Whatever.

And nice evasion on the topic of how sports reflect the society they're in fellas - stacking, segregation etc (very quiet)no doubt as Bradley did with AB's Patton example many things can be ignored if you have a superiority complex!

>>>American sports reflect our society. It is a society driven by market economics and a consumer desire to see the best possible product on the field, regardless of the ethnic make up of the players. And the players are handsomely rewarded for their efforts. I am avoiding nothing you have written, its just that some is mindless ranting that doesn't make any sense. How is American Football segregated, how is American Society segregated and how are the two related? Give me examples rather than generalities.

As to Patton-It is an Army's job to kill people and break things with ruthless efficiency. Patton did this well. He was not out to win popularity contests, but to win and win convincingly. He did his job to the best of his knowledge and ability. If that is a reflection of the U.S., then I fine with that characterization.

If you have something specific, fine. If not, go away.

Hey Taha,

I've tried to stay out of this, but I need to ask you a few questions:

1) Is your real name Derock?

2) Regarding superiority, intelligence, and all that bull, what would be your elitist attitude if our beloved President Bush sent a few little boats, planes, and 'inferior' troops your way? Bring on your intellectual babble and tell a Stealth bomber with pinpoint targeting how smart you are. I'm sure that you will outsmart them! (by the way, our troops are colorless and from every ethnic persuasion; Hell there might even be a few "Maorians" in there, but they're all Americans and that's all you need to know, so quit with the racist crap)

3) Defaming Patton. I don't really care, but you can take anything out of context and make a case for it. Our liberal politicians do it all of the time. Maybe we should call you Taha "Clinton" Maori! War is hell, not pretty, and atrocities happen. My question, did Patton do more good or evil?

4) Did you infer that the U.S. doesn't do well in international competition because we're not big fans of rugby, soccer, and Maori football? We only win "world championships" within the U.S.? (I agree the term "world championship" is used pariochially and missused), but don't belittle our athletes. Just watch the next "world" Olympics.

5) I apologize if our independence and freedom makes us a bit arrogant. It's not on purpose or intended; instead I think it's just the difference between creating a new culture as we did a few hundred years ago vs. continuing in a tradition steeped in monarch rule.

6) Really, other than for the sport of dueling with you, this isn't the place for this discourse. My suggestion is that you publish a chat room or message board that you can invite others to attend if they are interested and leave this board for serious discussion of our inferior game of football. We as officials are not as enlightened as you Maorians. We actually need to keep studying to raise our collective consciousness.

Happy Trails, Taha!

LOL, I swear JMN I was thinking the same thing .At first I was surprised that the Anti-Ref hadn't piped in with some of his insatiable rambling. But then I thought Ah-Ha ! , he just might be Taha LOL Good Ole Derock must be busy working some youth league Super Bowl tournament making the big-bucks LOL

Great fellas some decent dialogue at last! Yes I agree most of the info (on Patton, the war etc) can be taken out of context but if you plug in the sentences they are downloaded from US sites! The only one that isn't is the German one on the origins of Ki-o-Rahi and the programme you used ABs to interpret the meaning was shocking!

And sleeper I agree the biggest influence in world sport are the globalised trends of 'The market economy' and 'consumerism'.

It is interesting how spectator appeal has been generated by entertainment packages at the games and awesome advertising strategies. I feel however that societies in general may suffer from this trend - of watching sport rather than playing them - because of increased obesity in all western populations and hence the bigger burdens on our health systems.

This is why I see diversity in sports as being healthy, because then people don't become straight-jacketed into participating or behaving within the sports and leisure domain. For instance if everyone followed American football, only a certain number could play (market forces) which leaves millions doing little but watching because of market dictates (ie consumerism practices).

Shouldn't a healthy population embrace diversity then?

Perhaps watch a little sport then go and play some sport themselves?

Diversity in sports should be driven by market forces, rather than by a forced distribution, allowing for consumer choice to dictate what people want to see. For instance, the US has every major professional sport, but the market determines which ones are the most successful by the tickes that are sold. In other countries, especially those where the populace lacks disposable income, the choices are greatly reduced (soccer and baseball as an example) and are driven by the cost to participate. The more limited the choices, the greater the passion for the choices that exist. That is why the balance of the world finds soccer (football) to be so important, yet the US is just now getting interested in the World Cup and professional soccer as a viable enterprise within the US. Even in the UK, which has a similar socio-economic structure to the US, soccer players are high-profile celebrities. In the US, soccer players are down the list from Football (college and pro), Baseball, Hockey, Basketball.

I think the inference here is that since these other unpopular sports may have origins in 'non-white' cultures, there is some underlying bias against them by our racist American society.

If people want to play soccer (as I think it is the #1 youth sport here in terms of participation), then let them play. If they want to play football, let them play. If they want to play rugby. let them play. Parents should encourage their kids to be active and participate in whatever they find enjoyable. If they see football, basketball and hockey on TV and want to do that, well, fine.

Millions here play softball, rec league basketball, hockey and soccer, run, bike, swim, weight train, hike, mountain climb, play tennis, golf etc. That's already pretty diverse.

No the inference was not on racism, just denigration of sports that some people write off as insignificant (such as ki-o-rahi), when if they knew the history of that so-called 'insignificant' sport they may see that without it having existed 'their' sport (such as A-ball) may never have evolved! Some people actually rubbish sports they no nothing about because they feel 'their' sport is the only one that matters in the world, and if that sport is only played in their country they may also feel like their country is the only one that matters in the world.

Early major American sports (mainly pre-WW2) were segregated, which was a reflection of the society at the time. Where there was less segregation was actually in the minority sports and boxing.

I agree market forces dictate, however that still shouldn't stop children in schools learning about other places in the world and their sports too. This can give the child an all-round picture of the world that is not distorted by prejudices or one-eyedness and gives them options about the sport they want to play not the one their parents are trying to co-erce them to play. In effect sometimes marketing "forces" the ones with money in the household (the parents) to dictate to their kids where and what sport to play.

For instance if your child was passionate about Ki-o-Rahi and wanted to play it over American football what would your initial reaction be? What resistances spring to mind for you?

<I>For instance if your child was passionate about Ki-o-Rahi and wanted to play it over American football what would your initial reaction be? </I>


That they would be very lonely.

Taha,

Boy, you sure have passion for your topic, I'll give you that. And... a lot of time on your hands to promote Hi-Ho-Raunchi.

Regarding kids, all I need is one more activity for my kid to participate in. Driving them from place to place is a full time job for moms in our culture. Do you guys have mini-vans where you're from? Do you have "Ki-Ho-Rahi Mom's" and are they pandered to at election time? Do you have elections?

You actually sound very interested in the study of sports and culture. With the apparent time you have on your hands, I would suggest one of two potential uses for that time. Either write a thesis and pursue a doctorate on this topic or get a beer and some chips and watch a little more TV!

(p.s. If you didn't catch it, you may want to do a study on cynicism regarding one-off, obscure sports and those in foreign lands that promote it via the Internet)

Aloha from Hawai'i Taha!
 

I've enjoyed reading the postings regarding sports in New Zealand, etc.

Here in Hawai'i we are more fortunate than most of our brothers and sisters who reside in the 48 continental states because we truly live in a multi-cultural society in the islands.

I have a wahine friend who dances for a local hula halau and they study Maori dance. Also, a childhood friend and little league baseball team-mate sailed on the famous voyaging canoe Hokule'a as it traveled between Hawai'i and Tahiti and other islands recreating the great voyages of migration in Polynesia that predate Columbus by over 500 years. One of the high schools we officiate is located on the slopes of Haleakala, where the great mythical hero Maui roped the sun and made it slow down on its journey across our skies. I believe Maui is also known among your people as well...

I did look up the Maori battalions that fought during WWI and WWII and they did rack-up a very impressive record for their small numbers. You have every right to be proud of what your people have accomplished in peacetime and during war.

However, the other blokes on this site do have a good point: this is a discussion board for American football. Therefore, I would be happy to exchange email addresses with you so we may continue this discussion at another location.

Mahalo nui loa for sharing your mana'o with us!

See how marketing affects the rhetoric! The marketers have you consumers just where they want you. It seems like A-ball is a religion to alot of you, healthy?

My point here is that you can not confine sports to the paddock they are played on, nothing social exists in isolation?

So by talking A-ball you must be by inference talking about the society it thrives in and to understand it fully you need to explore the mechanisms for its existence.Therefore to understand a game you need to understand the people who support it and work out why they adhere to it.

So this is the question, why A-ball, why not ping pong or any other sport, answers? (please no marketing rehash!).

You'll also notice all the war mongering was started by other posters who sidetracked giving thinking answers, I simply played along until they got back on track with the sports discussion.

Rugby Union v Gridiron?
 

Would never happen .. different concepts .. different games ..

Kia ora Taha ..

You seem to have a bee in the bonnet .. btw ( I am a Kiwi too, that happened upon this site ..).

I must say Taha, that you are politicing the sports forum .. what was the old adage "sport and politics do not mix"

I am interested in the ki-o-rahi though .. since in the south (south Island) we don't see much of it .. predominantly played in the north of the north no? and not very well known even in NZ.

Now if you guys want to find out a bit more about Rugby Union .. try KiwiRugby.net ( http://www.kiwirugby.net you too Taha).

This weekend England v New Zealand .. biggest game for years .. as a matter of fact since England last beat us in 1905 at the Crystal palace :D

<i>It seems like A-ball is a religion to alot of you, healthy?</i>

Umm, you're not too fixated on Ki-o-Rahi, though, right?

Even your fellow Kiwi doesn't know much about it.

Are free market conditions the reason that soccer is the sport of obsession in most European, African, South American and Asian countries? Is it the reason that kids fill a sack with feathers or paper and kick it around in the poorest of poor neighborhoods in these countries? Is it the reason they riot on soccer stadiums around the world during matches between bitter rivals? Is it the reason fans (hooligans) fill balloons with blood and urine to lob at opposing players and fans? I propose that soccer is a part of their culture, hence their devotion to the sport. It's not a part of ours. We have American football, baseball, basketball and hockey. Football is the most popular, mostly because it is a sport that lends itself well to television, and continues to be the most popular sport in terms of high school participation. It enjoys a tradition here, much like baseball used to about 30 years ago.

Kia ora Mike,

well I was on the subject of A-ball....my question was why is the Superbowl billed as the world championship when really only one (1) country plays the sport? The numbers per head of population who play in the US are minute also. By way of comparison I am saying that the advertisers have gone loco with the claim of a World Championship because we in NZ could say we were holding ther Ki-o-Rahi World Championship but the public here are not as stupid and would see through the hype.Don't American fans feel such an assertion, that they are having a world series!, is hollow and meaningless? Are the fans that easy to deceive and is that a national trait? are Americans outside of the sports arena also so gullible?

yes we are.

By the way, was this on your mind for 9 months?

Watched Whale Rider a few weeks ago.

Well, I managed to stay out of this for a pretty long time, but this caught my eye:

"my question was why is the Superbowl billed as the world championship when really only one (1) country plays the sport?"

Mr. Kiwi,

I'm not american and I don't even live in the US, just to get that straight.

American football is played in AT LEAST 25 countries, even in good 'ole NZ. I've even listed the ones I have positive knowledge of here for you:

Australia
Austria
Belgium
Czech Republic
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Ireland
Italy
Japan
Mexico
Moldava
The Netherlands
New Zeeland
Norway
Russia
South Korea
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
Turkey
Ukraine
United Kingdom
United States

All these are countries where organized leagues exists. In addition, I've heard Greece is trying to get a federation started.

As you can see, football is being played in a lot of countries. It is by no means just an American thing. There are proper international competitions and championships, especially in Europe. World championships are being started, and two have actually been held on a smaller scale. Due to the way the sport is organized in the US, it has been difficult to get them to join, but progress is being made. There is now a proper (in the eyes of international sport) federation (USA Football) that enables this.

And then you have this business of "World Champions". Well, although football is a sport played the world over, there is no doubt that the best players are in the NFL. So although incorrect, I can live with them being called world champions.

Just FYI...

Plus don't forget- Canadian football is very similar and played in at least one additional country... Canada.

Yeah, Canada should have been on there as well, especially as they play both versions there, I believe.

?
 

Hey Dommer1 thats a great list, so can you tell me which "international" teams feature in the "World Championship", aka the Super Bowl? - just one other country will do thanks.

I think its safe to say that it is generally recognized that the highest level of (American) football in the world is played in the NFL, hence, the NFL champion is the world champion. The same can be said of basketball.

It may be closer than years past, but the same could be said of baseball and hockey as well. The best players in the world come to play in each of those leagues.

Being 'generally recognized' by whom? Does that mean that the best A-football team in the 'rest of the world' would not be competitive with the worst in the NFL?

I note in the last basketball world championship the US was well beaten.So the American public may get duped by the promoters and advertisers into believing they have the best players in the strongest comp in the world (in A-football, b-ball, hockey, baseball...) so that the spectators feel like they're privileged and getting value for their money. All that hype from the promoters could be seen as propoganda so that the consumers (public) help support the professional league and everyone involved (as in lifestyles).

Across the Tasman, in Australia, the rugby league promoters there always say the same thing - "we have the strongest club comp in the world"... "the best players" etc yet the best Pom
(British)teams have no trouble in beating the best Aussie teams even though they come from a supposedly weaker comp.

So why isn't A-football opened up and a genuine world championship held? Why don't the market forces allow this? I just can't see how you can legitimately promote a world championship if only one country is participating.

[Edited by Taha Maori on Mar 27th, 2004 at 09:22 AM]

To quote you from an earlier post (months ago) The reason that the NFL doesn't play the rest of the world is because after one hit it would be "LIGHTS OUT". Then all the New Zealanders would have nothing to do and complain that all the players from your country were knocked out. Then they would go back to playing Yu-gi-oh or whatever game that is that they play!!!

Taha Maori,

It seems that no matter what anyone says to you, you have already made up your mind and you "know" all the facts. When I come across a coach like that during a game, I find it best to politely just end the discussion, as there is nothing to be gained from continuing it.

It is obvious that you do not ask questions hoping to learn the real answers to these questions, and your real motive is just to stir things up.

In other words, your attitude makes answering your questions a waste of time.

Kia ora D-1


I am disappointed to hear that you have "switched off".It has been a trait with the conversations on this post that when the discussions gets too revealing with regard to the underlying concepts involved in the culture of A-ball - particularly the core values systems - all kinds of distractions are posted from why America are superpowers, to personal attacks and culture minimisation and derision.

It would be refreshing to have someone post the reasons why so many spectators (consumers) get so hoodwinked by the misleading hype surrounding the game - such as 'World Championship'. I thought this site was for A-ball discussion be it comfortable or not, I am not criticising the game buit merely seeking to findout more about it from the (supposed) experts, the fans within the American culture.

But seeing you have "switched off" D-1 perhaps there are others out there with their light bulbs still on?

Being 'generally recognized' by whom? Does that mean that the best A-football team in the 'rest of the world' would not be competitive with the worst in the NFL?

It is generally accepted that the Holocaust happened, despite claims to the opposite. It is generally accepted that the world is not flat. I'm sure you can find pockets of contrary thought, but that in itself doesn't mean each assertion is on equal intellectual footing.

So....to answer your question, it is generally recognized by those who know anything about American football e.g. the American press, the European press who covers NFL Europe, Canadian press etc.

You propose some conspiracy exists in the media to brainwash us to what you feel is some kind of totally unfounded bias - that the NFL is home to the best teams in the world, hence the winner of that league is the world champ.

The second best football played is at the Division I college level, and it is 'generally accepted' that the best college team (national champion) would get blown out by the worst NFL team.

The US, (in basketball) when it sends it's first team (like in the Olympics) doesn't just win, it wins by a large margin. That's the fact. Where do the best players in the world come to play? The NBA.

I'll exchange views with you as long as you wish, but you assert the same thing over and over. I get the impression you've never seen the NFL play on a regular basis. You'd have a different view if you did, I'm sure.

Taha, you're killing me!
 

Taha,

If you're point is that you need us to agree that because the NFL plays in the U.S. and because of geography, this doesn't constitute a "World Championship", OK. It's semantics. Let's move on! This banter is a waste of everyone's time.

And regarding the fans being "hoodwinked" by this contention that they are watching the World Championships, these are not stupid people. They believe that they are watching the best players and teams in the world. They don't give a flip if teams from New Zealand or Taiwan are not included. It doesn't invalidate the achievement of the championship teams.

Your assertion that this is a big "con" because it's called a world championship is irrelevant and inaccurate. Take away the "championship" moniker and it would still draw the audience and attention that it does today. In short, nothing would change, other than you would feel better.

Kia ora JMN

if as you say, the sport of American Football would still draw the same audience if the deception (is this an American euphamism for 'hype?)of 'world championship' was not used - then why is it used at all then?

There are people who view this site who would be interested to know if you have a vested interest in continuing this deception of the American people - JMN are you involved in deceiving the American public?, you seem to get very defensive when aspects of this are mentioned!

We all know that most other countries which play A-ball have made it illegal to pump athletes full of drugs and steriods and that until America rids this aspect from its game - no other country can hope to compete equally.

JMN it seems like you are 'taking people for a ride' or that you are being 'taken for a ride' - perhaps you could come clean????

It seems like many of your politicians are now. Remember how we discussed the American Football culture reflecting the society it is in? The footballing public have/are being deceived just like the American public have been over aspects of the Iraqi War (eg remember the line on 'Weopons of Mass Destruction' - see the similarities NOW JMN?)

New Zealanders would never be so gullible, or to use your word, STUPID, our traditional game of Ki-o-Rahi is based on intelligence, from the players and spectators...the players always make up their own minds on the sportsfield..not through an earpiece.

JMN we humbly wait for your apology to the American people.

Kind regards

Taha

JMN,

Seems like T. M. is just trolling for an argument. I wouldn't bother explaining anything.

It seems like he is very close to busting our dirty little secret of how we gain market share by calling something a world championship when it is actually a national championship. Oops, did I just let the cat out of the bag? Sorry ....

Kia ora mikesears'

Fantastic, honesty! So this is a market strategy by the promoters of American Football. Just as Bush used a 'market strategy' to sell going to war against Iraqi based on getting those world threatening 'Weopons of Mass Destruction'!

In NZ we all wore wry smiles when we heard Bush's rhetoric about attacking the terroist Iraqis...same 'market strategy' we heard against the Afghans...Africans...Vietnamese...yet the American public were still duped.The analogy of A-ball and A-society as mirror images can be seen clearly in this light.

Is there anyway that the American public can get itself out of propping up the arms industry? In NZ the figure we're hearing is that $2,000,000 A MINUTE is spent by Americans on 'arms'.Ofcourse the 'marketers' continually have to create situations to perpetuate the use of arms...and poor American taxpayers are being stressed to the max with the market strategy whereby they're continually bombarded with the fear of needing to contain world outbreaks by terroists - really they should be looking at their own industrialists and their terroist actions.

I digress...Honest mikesears...can you tell us of any other 'market strategies' that the promoters of American Football use? we have also heard that the players have their heights and weights 'boosted' considerably to impress the public?

regards as always

Taha

To everyone.

I apologize for responding and keeping this thread going. I should have kept my sarcasm to myself and let this thread die a long overdue death.

I promise to not post anything else to this thread and hopefully this foolishness will eventually go away.

New Zealanders would never be so gullible, or to use your word, STUPID, our traditional game of Ki-o-Rahi is based on intelligence, from the players and spectators...the players always make up their own minds on the sportsfield..not through an earpiece.

That Joe Montana sure was a dunce, wasn't he?

And the guile, wisdom and intelligence of New Zealanders has netted them.....umm, give me a minute, I'll think of something....sorry, let me Google it, maybe they can turn up something....sorry, still nothin unless you count a few middle of the pack golfers on the PGA Tour.


Pretty country, though. I guess that counts for something. Wish we had that here. Oh wait - we do.

My last post for New Zealand!
 

Taha,

This is the last time that I will respond to you.

Obviously your game is to incite negative debate by creating arguments and then infusing them with how gullible and weak the American public is. You cover the landscape from American Football (is there really any other!) to WMD and Iraq. You are sure not to leave out the mass deception going on in the NFL, steriods in other sports, etc.

Keep in mind, as you sit back and criticize everything from American football to our policy in Iraq and accuse me of misleading the American public (?), U.S. citizens are strong, resolute, and united. You see, even when we disagree, we are united.

I don't think that the NFL is evil in their attempts to "sell" their product. I don't agree with a lot of what the NFL does to sell their entertainment (sportsmanship for one), but the fact remains that the best American-style football in the world is played by NFL teams. If you don't agree, suit up and come on over. A number of us officials would even work your game for free :) .

Not everyone in the U.S. is as smart as you, so at times we may be deceived by this silly game of football. I don't expect you to understand this, so I'm finished responding to you.

I believe that we should use this board to "build up" one another to be better 'AMERICAN' football officials, not engage in political discussions or chase red herrings about the evilness of capitalism in the NFL. So, unless you plan to put on the stripes and join us soon, good bye and God bless.

Kia ora koutou,
boys, boys, boys...nothing I have said should be interpreted as 'negative' unless ofcourse you are being defensive... self-reflection is a powerful tool and going along with the status quo, just because something has always been, is in the words of your own 'deception unraveller' - David Young (Uni of Cal), a "calculated deception" based on "idealism, elitism and naivity".

Personally I like A-ball...and rugby...and ki-o-rahi...
but that doesn't mean I should not critically evaluate their existence and function - I believe nothing in society happens in isolation - hence I believe sports cultures reflect the society they inhabit.

I hope the type of collusion you boys display on this site does not get taken onto the football field, 'unity of purpose', has been the downfall of many corrupt officials who contrive results of football matches.

You boys have contributed little in the way to the critique of American Football - if you re-read your meagre contributions you will see how defensive and negative you all have been...I expected more from citizens of the most 'unoppressed' nation in the world...perhaps 'freedom of speech' has been knocked out of you by peer pressure?

Good luck to the teams you officiate, they will certainly need it!

Kia ora koutou,
boys, boys, boys...nothing I have said should be interpreted as 'negative' unless ofcourse you are being defensive... self-reflection is a powerful tool and going along with the status quo, just because something has always been, is in the words of your own 'deception unraveller' - David Young (Uni of Cal), a "calculated deception" based on "idealism, elitism and naivity".

Are you ever going to address any of our responses or are you just going to cluck your tongue in a falsely self satisfied sneer. You seem to think that because we are united in our opposition to your 'theories' that it is collusion, when it fact it maybe we have a little more insight into this matter than you, hence we reach basically the same conclusion. If we were all to agree that the earth is round, would the Flat Earth Society claim collusion?

Just because we don't accept your ill-thought out premises or swallow your meandering logic around the bend, that doesn't mean we aren't engaging you in this discussion. Your original premise that the Super Bowl winner should not be celebrated as the world champion is false and we have given examples as to why. So you're wrong on that. That we are under some svengali like spell of the media and hence perpetuate your first wrong premise is also without merit. You're failure to grasp either of these is evidence of your close-mindedness on the subject - not ours.

I propose all of your arguments, premises, examples, logic and conclusions are either outrightly false or so completely free of reason that they belong in the 'rubbish heap' as I think you call it. It's all fun and games to take shots at the '800 pound gorilla' because he is, after all, the big guy and who doesn't want to take shots at the big guy. In spite of all your ramblings, thats all it boils down to - a inferiority complex induced swipe at American football and, by extension, us.

Have fun with your little game over there in New Zealand. With people like you backing it, it should become real big right around never.

Amen AB!
 

Dear AB,

God bless America!

back to normality!
 

A very quick comment from N.Z. There is nothing the matter with American footy as far as I can gather. I play quitwe a bit of golf and meet many people from far a field including the states. With our discusions it seems lke we can get out of touch with events as momentious as the iraq war because of our distance from it in real terms and political terms. The States are transforming the world in sports and in everyday thingswe do it is impossible not tobe affected American footy will become big in our country eventually.We will have a new prime minister next election who will put an end to all this pointless upheavel that liberals and maoris are the cause of. ouyr coyuntry is unsettled and going back wards quickly with the mari culture being so in our faces.The maori games are inferior to our main games like golf rugby and soccer and need to be forgotten so we can move into the future as one people. Yes God bless America and our country and the quicker your footy gets going here the quicker we can be rid of the menial maori games which are becoming too popular and are tainting our youth.

God save the Queen!
 

Amen, Mr. Kiwi!

Now there's a kick in the teeth, huh Taha?

we need American Footy!
 

hurray at last!
theres chaos galore here in our country because legaslation is getting past to prevent those moaris from getting the seashore. Dr Brash has said they will allow nuclaer powerd shipsback in our waters. Tens of thousands of moari are protesting and im stoked! Our golf corses will be safe from been given back to moari and there pathetic games will cease to pollute our sportsmad countrymen. We need your footy here quickly it isd much better than the moari footy! Help! jump in while the goings good! Please USA start supporting a major league in our country! three cheers!

Re: we need American Footy!
 

LOL... FOOTY ...LOL

:eek: For a minute there I thought I was at McGriff's

I have two questions that is relevant to our discussions - 1) how many refs are required in an American Football game? 2) how many rules are there regarding breeches of the rules and/or covering codes of misconduct?

High school - 4,5 or 6 officials.
College - 6
NFL - 7

NFHS - 10 rules
College - 11 Rules
NFL - 18 Rules

Rules regarding breaches of the rules??

That's under "penalty enforcement".

Minor update... NCAA will use 5, 6 or 7 officials on the field depending on the division level and conference at that level. They do occasionally use 4 or 5 for "sub"-varsity level.

Thankyou and interesting re: numbers of game officials per match. Can a player be cited for an infringement in a game by anyone else other than the on-field game officials? and can players be disciplined by officials for off the field behaviour? (if so by whom in the American Football governing body?)

The reason there are four or more officials is NOT because of player control issues. It is more about the rules of the game.

You wrote:
Can a player be cited for an infringement in a game by anyone else other than the on-field game officials?

The method game officials have for controlling players is by administering penalties to his/her team and this is usually motivation enough for a player to quit fouling. If a player's actions are flagrant, he can be disqualified for the remainder of the game by the officials.

But this discussion really depends upon your definition of "citing". If you mean issuing a penalty to his team, the answer is "No, only game officials can issue a yardage penalty against a team for a player's misconduct during the game."

However, if citing a player means disciplining a player, then the answer is yes. A coach can "cite" a player for poor conduct by stepping in and removing a player from the game without any direction or request from a game official (and this does happen).

Also, players can be "cited" by the governing body AFTER a game is completed. They can be suspended (further suspended) by the governing body.


You wrote:
can players be disciplined by officials for off the field behaviour

At most levels of football, there is a governing body that can issue additional penalties to a player who breaks rules or misbehaves when not on the field but those who were paid to administer the game don't have any say for off the field behavior.

The professional body that handles the players is the NFL and the NFLPA (NFL Players Association) and the team owner.

[Edited by mikesears on May 24th, 2004 at 08:11 AM]

Hello,

Ok, I've just stumbled upon this forum. May I just say something so that all the non-Maori folks on this site don't think that all Maori are all like Taha Maori.

I have played American Football and it is an awesome game with big plays, massive hits(tackles) and a deep strategic focus. The skills of quarterbacks are phenomental especially when you consider that there are 150kg dudes about 2 meters away wanting to rip your head-off. Its about team work, guts and co-ordination. There is everything to admire about the sport and American culture that keeps it alive through media, marketing and education. It is a very big industry and one of the things that keeps people employed, makes them happy and creates a sense of unity. Very powerful! Basketball is also very similar.

Ki-o-Rahi is by no means similar. No does it relate to American culture. Maori sports were lost and detraditionalised through legislation and corruption, not through conquest. That is historically accurate. Also,75% the the Maori population from 1880-1900 were wiped out by epidemic diseases transmitted by rats and sexual abuse (from wherelse but Europe). Anyway, enough, I'm sorry for dragging on, but Maori can't be criticised for being hopeless.

Taha Maori, whilst your argument is historically accurate and intellectually sound, your assumptions and critique are very tangental. The people on this forum have no idea as to the tragic history of New Zealands colonisation. The reality is that traditional life and beliefs are still seen as uncivilised outsie of NZ, although this is changing slowly.

I'm sure if there was a sport that we could all compete in this would create a greater unity and understanding. Basketball is probably the closest we have and whilst NZ can't compete with the likes of Shaq, Johnson, etc we do pretty well in the global competitions. Perhaps there will be a sport that truely represents our country's warrior sportsmen? Such as Ultimate Fighting, thats a pretty universal but isnt very tactical, well that could be argued.

Anyway, I appreciate the chance to read the many posts and learn from you all. May we continue in the honour of sports and please try and keep the degradation of cultures to a minimum, it really does upset people.

Warmest regards,

Kingi Gilbert
Ngati Whakaue, Ngati maniapoto

NationalParty - go back the hole that you crawled out from, I hope my children never encounter someone with the unjust bigotry and hatred you have towards Maori. We are all trying to make a living in this world and we don't need narrowminded fools like you ruining what very little we have of our identity. I'm sure you create enough trouble for yourself anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if you've been punched in the head recently.

American FB is safer than ever. The number of injuries and 'roughness' doesn't impress me as a means of comparing sports.

I remember many broken teeth prior to mouthguards being required. That's the major safety improvement in my lifetime. (Also, I am so old that I remember hard leather helmets and red penalty flags.)

PS - I played rugby in college and it is rough. We had an expression, "You need leather balls to play rugby." No pads and no blocking. But it's a different game than FB so why bother comparing? Both games are great fun to play. Ex-HS FB players make good rugby players.

Everytime I think this thread is dead..... :(

At last an even playing field!
 

What a present for the 2004 Xmas sporting sock.
Steroid & drug use are finally and openly admitted to be rife in American Footy. Putting your head in the sand, pretending there is no prolific use was a folly because now you have to admit it, which ofcourse makes you all look like hypocrites.

Will the US controllers of AF now transform their game into an even newer type of footy so they can still encourage their players to use drugs or will they care for the longterm health of their players and effectively control the massive drug & steroid use???

The US is basically playing against itself on the world sporting stage because they have 99% of their athletes on some type of drug & steroid programmes.

With reference to AF, once the steroid & drug use is controlled, other countries will be able to participate against them fairly - so sports do reflect the society they are in. In the US AF reflects the peoples values systems, finally the US Government has realised this and is in effect saying - DO WE WANT TO CONTINUE BEING IMMORAL? hell no, lets clean up our act, lets have sensible values, let our sports values reflect our societal values.

I was trying to help the deceivers, the ones who perpetuate the coverups of rife drug & steroid use in AF, by inviting them to NZ to saviour the clean, no drug, no steroid, in effect no cheating philosophies of our Ki-o-Rahi sports system. Whether the sport (Ki-o-Rahi) is relatively unknown is irrelevant, it is the values system which is an excellent model for looking after the welfare and health of players.

Now the US can try to organise a proper and true AF world championship instead of having play-offs with just the handful of steroid boosted teams within the US. NO other country in the world can compete with the AF drug & steroid programmes in the States. NOw, with other countries involved, competing with players of 'normal'physiology - NOT drug/steroid enhanced - a true world championship can be attempted. The drug testing technology has finally caught up with the drug cheaters capabilities!

Have a happy Xmas!

No steroid use in NZ? LOL Speaking of "your head in the sand?"

Here's an idea...
 

Here's an idea...
Perhaps if we all were to stop responding to this KIWI he might just go away!

Americans dying
 

billynomates you need to appreciate that thereare Americans dying to save your ungrateful ***.i'm stating how things are inNZ not beingracist or radiclelike you are.all NZ people now have guaranted access to the seashore.I've also found this fella kingi gilberts hole too, he resides at Whakarongo.com and I'm thinking him and taha maori might be closer than mates? lotsof high falutin talk about intilectuals knowledge, looks like a free radicle site, some sort of staging area for truoble makers?
Moving on,my golf handicap is down to 9,I'm stoked and I can't waitfor Superbowl!

[Edited by National Party on Dec 8th, 2004 at 01:17 PM]

Apologies in order for deceived Americans
 

These days, especially in matters to do with $$$$$ SORRY is the hardest word to get out of people who con others. This thread has been full of American Football officials/refs/enthusiasts who know how rife drug and steroid use is in their chosen sport, yet not once did any of these people openly condone such practices.

Truthful campaign ads should be aired on American TV that state, "encourage your child to play our great game, AMERICAN FOOTBALL, they will need to become drug and steroid junkies to be able to aspire to become WORLD CHAMPIONS in our (closed to the rest of the world) WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP."

Several contributors have even thrown in red herrings, like "we are basketball world champs" (not even) and "we have the best golfer in the world" (sorry fellas thats a Polynesian),and we had some war mongerers claiming that Americans are united in their search in Iraq for the huge munition dumps of WEOPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION - stating boldly that Americans cannot be duped!....to diverge from the threads focus on society/sport and their mutual affects.

I feel that particularly virulent comments have been directed at myself from ABoselli and JMN (and other backers)over issues of drug and steroid use in American Football and about how society reflects the sports that it cherishes.Quite simply if American sport stops the drug and steroid trade it will go away, at the moment athletes from all over the world innocently strive to get American Uni scholarships thinking that doing so will enhance their sports ability - they are right, but only once they are coercedo into a drug program.

Now that the damaging US sports drug issues have been unveiled, US sports policies are beginning to copy the NZ "clean" and open sports values that we have in Ki-o-Rahi, we can once again ask ABoselli, JMN and others to apologise to the American public for their deceit. This thread is silent testimony to their American Football thoughts and practices and steadfast denial of steroid and drug use by players.

Afore mentioned citizens, America awaits your honourable reply.

Re: Apologies in order for deceived Americans
 

Every time I read one of these posts it reminds me of the spam I get telling me I've won 2,000,000 dollars from some guy I've never met if only I send him 10% to process the fund transfer.

I'd forgotten my "virulent" comments.

What did I say - I don't feel like reading every post for 7 pages.

BTW, why the sudden steroid rant? The NFL has a pretty strict policy on steroids, hence the suspensions that are handed out regularly. Baseball is the sport without a steroid policy, to which I say, umm, so what?

Anything else you hate the United States for or is that about it? Being near Festivus and all, it is time for the "airing of grievances".

what a great non seinfeld use of "festivus"

Kudos to a boselli

Where is the nanny
 

How did this thread get so far without a fatal intervention of our nanny?

Re: Where is the nanny
 

the nanny is still rotfltao

sports reflect society
 

As an example: American football has many refs, more the merrier and this is an expectation by the players. Hence we have an American Football rule book, thousands of pages long, supported by 5,6 ... referees.

Result, American Football players have devised strategies, an unwritten code or culture that could probably equal the 'official rules' book, to beat the rules and the refs.

compare this to America as a nation, x no. of people playing "the game" as related to world affairs. The expectation by American people, as for the players of American Football, is that they will be reffed (by other nations and organisations ie. UN) and that they are 'entitled' to try to circumnavigate "the rules".

Result....because the "nation refs" are 'weaker' than the players (American Govt.) the players (USA) play how they want, ...

On world scale their philosophy becomes..."we will lie and cheat, and torture and maim who we want, when we want, for whatever reason we want to...to win!" Absolutely no self reflection or self reffing, because they (US) are incapable of doing so. As in sport, such attitudes are fostered with international relationships.

simply an example about how American expectations on the sportsfield mimic the attitude of American society in world relationships...sports reflect the society they inhabit and VV...

[Edited by Taha Maori on Dec 13th, 2004 at 03:30 PM]