A 2/2 50. Team A leaves the huddle and the entire team comes to a one second stop. End A88 then goes out along his line and stops. Back A22 then moves backward and the ball is snapped less than one second after end A88 had stopped. The QB muffs the snap at the A48. The ball hits the ground at the A48 and B21 bats the ball, which goes out of bounds at the A46.

all options and dont forget the clock !

Illegal shift by A88 because he was not set for at least one full second prior to the snap. (Can he also be guilty of illegal motion because he did not retreat 5 yards behind his line?).

Illegal motion by A22 because he started moving before A88 was set for one second.

Illegal batting by B21.

Double foul prior to a change of team possession. Team captains are not consulted. Result would be to replay the down from the previous spot. Clock will start on the snap because the ball was out of bounds.

iF IM READING THIS RIGHT i HAVE A DEAD BALL FALSE START ON A22. HE MOVED BACKWARDS.

NOTHING ELSE MATTERS NOW

5 YARDS BACK REPLAY DOWN

How about.....
 

I've got a live ball illegal shift on A, and a live ball illegal batting of the ball by B. The two live ball fouls cancel each other out. We go back to the original line of scrimmage and replay the down.

I agree with HSWH (so he must be wrong).

Agreed.

Maybe I'm missing something, but isn't it possible that A22 was beginning to go in motion and just left too soon? If this is possible, then couldn't you call an illegal shift and leave it at that. Why are you guys calling this a false start (dead ball) instead of allowing the play to progress and calling a live ball foul?

HSWH, What's the significance of A22's backward movement other than directional?

Illegal shift.
 

This wouldn't be a false start. It's an illegal shift. It isn't illegal motion since there was only 1 player in motion at the snap and he wasn't moving towards the opponent's goal line.

Oh- and I only agreed with D-Rock that HSWH was wrong. ;)

Right. Illegal shift.

<i>...and the ball is snapped less than one second after end A88 had stopped. </i> That's the very definition of an illegal shift (or one of them). I'm a little unclear as to the time line, though. If A88 moved out to a new position on the line and stopped and <i>then</i> A22 moved backward and this all happened in that span of time that lasted less than one second, it was a pretty speedy move backwards by A22. Either way, A88 has to be set for one full second before 1)the ball can be snapped and b) another player goes in motion. Live ball - offsetting with the illegal bat, previous spot, start it on the snap as the ball was OB.

I am not sure about NF, but in NCAA the one second rule only applies if there has been more than one person in motion at the same time. In the play senerio given, that was not the case. 88 moved and then stopped. Then the back moved backwards. Therefore the play would have been legal.

The only foul I saw in the play was the illegal batting by B, since he batted the ball forward. Since this happened behind the line of scrimmage, it would be 15 yards from the previous spot, which would result in a 1st down for Team A, since they were only 2 yards shy of the line to gain when the play started.

Big Whistle is correct for NCAA
 

Big whistle is correct for NCAA as per Approved Ruling 7-1-4-IV, Page FI-34.

NFHS rules differ however!
A22 committed an illegal shift as he did not wait 1 second after A88 became set before he (A88) started his shift.
See NFHS Casebook 7.2.7 SITUATION: (b)

B21 Committs an illegal bat a per NFHS 9-7-2

Double Foul as per NFHS 10-2-1
Penalties cancel and the down is replayed!

Re: Big Whistle is correct for NCAA
 

AGREE !

So we ALL agree; that backwards motion is irrelevent. It is the dbl foul of ill shift (a22) and ill batting (b21). Replay down, clock begins at snap.

Now, lets add something to this. What if a22's action (moving backwards) simulated the snap (picked up real quick and stepped backwards). THIS is now the false start. Dead play. Nothing else matters? There would be no ill shift (due to no snap happening).Correct????

You are correct!
 

Yes, if A22's action simulates action at the snap, (and it did as you described) Then we have a dead ball false start and the play is blown dead at that point.
5 yard penalty, and repeat the down - NFHS 7-1-7a

Re: You are correct!
 

Let's hope we don't have a repeat of the down :D

BigWhistle,

Is the reason that you don't call this a shift because A88 was not moving simultaneously with A22, thus A22 was legally in motion and A88's movement is now immaterial?

This helps in learning the NCAA rules.

Under NCAA rules, a shift is the movement of 2 or more players simultaneously after the ball has been blown ready for play and before the ball is snapped. As long as only one player at a time was moving not toward the line of scrimmage or simulating the start of the play, there will be no foul.

NFHS

Did A88 turn toward the LOS? If not, we may have an illegal procedure for A88 not being on the line pointed toward his opponents goal.

When A22 moved the offense had not been set for a full second.

B21 intentional bat mames for double fouls both live ball, replay the down.

The clock is stopped because the ball went out of bounds and it will start on the snap.

Jm,

if a runningback moves backwards thats not motion. thats a false start.(never seen a running back step backwards to start his motion)


if we have a false start we have nothing but a dead ball false start 5 yards back.


if a running back moves and doesn't go in motion before the ball is snapped what do you have? and please don't tell me he can reset.

I still think this play is easy, false start on A22. everything else is wiped out.

blow and throw dead ball 5 yards against the offense 2/7 from the 45 start the clock on the ready for play whistle.

rule 7-2-6 after a huddle or shift all 11 players of A shall come to an ABOSOLUTE stop and shall remain stationary simultaneously without movement of hands,feet or body for at least 1 second before the snap. Penalty on A88 for not being set the full 1 second.

i still think we can have a false start also by A22 because you say back A22 then moves backwards and the ball is snapped. so he moved before the ball was snapped and this (maybe a judgement call) to me is simulating the start of a play which is a false start. the running back moved backwards he never went in motion because the ball was snapped.


Lets try looking at it this way, if a back moves forward (rememeber the back moved just before the snap, he never had time to go in motion)and the ball is snapped do we have a false start or motion? I say false start because he never started his motion. now in canada maybe he can get away with this.

Maybe James Neil could have worded it differntly?
A 2/2 50. Team A leaves huddle and the entire Team comes to a one second stop.End A88 then goes out along his line and stops.( now was the offense set and ready to play when they stopped for that one second? ) how many teams do you see come out to the line and stop, then move to their positions. they only have to be stopped for that 1 second before the ball is snapped.(unless they are already in their stands).A88 then goes out along his line and stops. (thats it A88 is done with his motion now , but he moves before being set for 1 full second, illegal procedure). A22 then moves backwards and the ball is snapped. (A22 moves before the snap and never went in motion, False start) Anything that happens after this doesn't matter.



JMN, you asked , isn't it possible that A22 was beginning to go in motion and just leave it at that. but we can't its not an officials job to read his mind and just think he was going in motion.

anyway A88 was never set so we have iilegal procedure dead ball penatly.

Maybe james neil should have worded this play differntly.

[

Maybe james neil should have worded this play differntly.


[/B][/QUOTE]

Well if I'd of done that we wouldn't have had this great discussion now would we? 8^)
Getting different feed back and perspective on this and most other plays posted has been very educational. You guys are great and even if I disagree, I get something out of most responses. Even having the Anti-Ref here on this board has helped me. He’s shown just how important it is that we know the rules and our mechanics. (Plus he’s good for helping me to practice keeping my temper in check when he posts about his outlandish officiating "game sense" LOL). For me, this particular forum has become the best place to study and learn without having to put up with all the whacko disgruntled fans posting at the other boards. So with that said , I’m going to see if I can dig up some more stuff to keep us talking ,discussing and debating the game we all love so much !