On 3rd and 11 from the A 3 yd line, A1 takes a pitch and is immediately hit in his own endzone by B1 who grasps and pulls A1's facemask while tackling him. Before A1 goes down, he fumbles the ball into the field of play and it goes out of bounds at A's 3. A1 then punches B1 and calls him a bad word.

Where's the ball next and what down is it (assuming the A captain isn't a complete nitwit) ?

AB, we've beat the hell out of this play or similar ones for two years now. The feds have come up with at least three different interoperations that I know of. The first one I heard said use 10-4-4d and enforce from the seceding spot. But this couldn't be right as the final result of this play is NOT a TB. Then they said enforce from the end of A1's run. Since we don’t mark off yards from inside the EZ, march it off from the goal line. Seems to me the last one we are told to ignore the fumble and treat it as if A1 never lost the ball. So off we go back to the seceding spot. I've had it with this play and am going to leave you guys to battle it out. BTW ...I'm a goal line guy 8^)

As a matter of interest, Canadian amateur rules would dictate:

We have fouls by both teams: B UR - facemask (7.3.5), A RP (7.2.2). This is a dual foul (8.6.1), only if both teams accept the penalties (8.6.2a). Let's assume that this happends; then: the POA is at the PLS, or the end of the run, at A's option (8.6.3).

Let's assume that A was tackled in the EZ and committed the RP foul in the EZ. Also, since the ball went OOB in the FoP, the point of origin for the fumble is the EZ. This will force A to apply the penalties at the PLS.

We would go up 15 for the facemask, and then half the distance back to the goal line for the A RP. 11 + 15 = 26, then to the 13. 1st and 10 for A.

Bruce, am I right?

we'll have 1st and 10 from the 9 yard line when all is said and done.


first we have a face mask against the defense in the end zone. runner fumbles from the end zone and ball goes out of bounds at the 3 yard line.

so I have 15 yards face mask from the end of the run which with the fumble is the 3 yard line.
1st and 10 from the 18 yard line.

but wait we have a personal foul on A1.(dead ball)

so Im marking off half the distant to the goal for this penalty and now we have 1st and 10 at the 9 yard line.



now if we have a 5 yard face mask...

we have the fumble at the 3 yard line. 5 yard penalty to the 8yard line. NO FIRST DOWN. then dead ball on A1's personal foul. so we have 3rd and 10 from the 4 yard line.


with a 15 yard face mask we have 1st and 10 from the 8 yard line


with a 5 yard face mask we have 3rd and 10 from the 4 yard line

I disagree that the 3 yard line is the end of the run (for penalty enforcement purposes). The end of the run is where the runner lost possession of the ball (NF 10-3-3b). Language in the case-book (10.5.2B) seems to back this up as well. 1/10 @ 15.

Obviously the U.C. would then be enforced after the first foul is enforced. The chains would then be set. 1/10 @ 7.5


Just my two cents.

mike I looked it up you are 100% correct

thank you.

Nice job, Mike. (no rule book here to refer to) We enforce all fouls on the defense that occurred in the end zone from the goal line, so the ball rolling out to the three is of no consequence, unless A has a pinhead captain who wants to decline the facemask, then we would march 1/2 the distance from the three. Otherwise, we go to the 15, award a new set of downs, back up 1/2 the distance, set up first and ten, blow it ready, start it on the snap.

Ok here is my stab at this...

Ball is spotted at the 3 yard line. (where the live loose ball went out of bounds)

A captain will accept the 15-yard face mask penalty (grasp and pull). This places the ball at the 18 yard line--Team A is awarded a new series of down (1st and 10).

After the play was over, we have a dead ball unsportsmanlike for throwing a punch. A1 is ejected, ball is moved back half the distance to the goal and spotted at the 9 yard line. You now have 1st and 19 (or should that be 1st and 10).

Derock....the ball cannot be advanced by a fumble. If this was the case you would see guys throw the ball forward every time they got close to the sideline and were being tackled. Therefore the ball cannot be marked at the 3 where the fumble went OB. The spot would have to be the goaline. There was a post that basically said the same thing a few posts up.

Nice job getting the ejection though. Throwing a punch or kicking is an act of fighting and the penalty would be 15 yards and an ejection.

This is the result of the play but not the end of the run. The end of the run for enforcement of the penalty is the goal line.


Close, but because we enforce from the goal line, the penalty takes the ball out to the 15. 1&10 from there.

Excellent, enforce the dead-ball penalty after the live-ball penalty. Good job.

But it would be 1&10 and would start at the 7 1/2. (See above)

Now I'm confused?
In an earlier post, I was told/corrected that you spot the ball where the fumble goes out of bounds. Now you're saying the ball cannot be advanced by a fumble (which is what I said earlier).

Someone, anyone please clear this up for me.

Careful with those words... if they thrown the ball forward, you could have a flag for an illegal pass.

Derock....if the fumble goes backwards then it's where the fumble goes OB. If it goes forwards, it's the spot of the fumble.

Theisey....I used the wrong wording. I did not mean throw, but intentionally drop the ball to advance it OB.

<I>If it goes forwards, it's the spot of the fumble. </I>

Not in NFHS. It' is where it crosses the sideline. The ball coming out to the three is of no consequence unless A refuses the facemask - then we just mark off the USC from the three. Fouls by the defense in their own end zone are enforced from the goal line.

Derock, no 1st and more than 10 unless a foul is committed after the next ready for play!!!!!!!

ABoselli...so if A1 has a 2-7, runs 5 yards and fumbles 4 yards and OB. That would be a 1-10 since the ball went 9 yards?

Aboselli, this foul was by the defense in A's end zone. Same rule?

I always thought a foul by B behind the neutral zone was enforced from the previous spot?

[Edited by Derock1986 on Jan 2nd, 2003 at 10:23 AM]

NCAA rules.....

After all is said and done, A has the ball 1st and 10 from the 9 yard line. Run ended behind LOS, therefore penalty is enforced from previous spot. That is the purpose of the beanbag, to mark the end of the related run. After awarding automatic first down for the PF against B, the dead ball foul against A would be addressed. Half the distance to the goal line, A1 taking the rest of the game off, and then setting the chains first and 10.

Derock,
Derock,
The netural zone has nothing to do with enforcing any foul by either A or B .
The “all-but-one” principle determines the spot of enforcement and is based upon knowing who committed the foul and where the foul was committed relative to the basic spot of enforcement.
To use this principal you must know the difference between a loose ball play and a running play and how to find the basic spot . If a foul occurs during a down, the basic spot of enforcement is determined by the action that was occurring at the time of the foul.
The basic spot is the previous spot for a foul which occurs simultaneously with the snap or free kick , or a foul which occurs during a loose ball play. There is one exception to this enforcement when the foul is roughing the passer.
The basic spot is the spot where the related run ends for a foul which occurs during a running play.
The basic spot is the succeeding spot, (where the ball would next be snapped or free-kicked ) for an unsportsmanlike foul, for a dead ball foul, for a nonplayer foul or when the final result of the play is a touchback and the ‘normal’ basic spot would have been the end of the run. All fouls are enforced from th basic spotexecpt fouls by the offence (team in possession of the ball) behind the basic spot which are enforced from the spot of the foul

NFHS 10-5-3: The enforcement spot for any foul by the defense is the goal line when the run ends in the end zone and would result in a safety.

Uh-oh! The run ended in the end zone but this play does not result in a safety!

By the way- isn't this a loose-ball play?!?! A fumble by A behind the NZ prior to change of team possession.

Therefore we enforce B's foul from the original LOS then administer the dead ball foul against A.

[Edited by AndrewMcCarthy on Jan 2nd, 2003 at 12:05 PM]

Mr Neil,
As I read the "All-but-one" principal, it appears to me that this principal has more to do with "where" you spot the ball than where you enforce the penalty. I'm learning...

Andrew,

I disagree with using the original LOS as the basic spot. My take is that this is a running play that ended in the end zone and that the foul was a live ball foul. Thus, I would enforce it from the goal line like Mr. Sears suggested.

I ran this through my mind as a play starting on the A20 yard line with the B facemask foul on the A15 and loose ball rolling out on the A18. Without the goal line to worry about, I would mark the end of the run at the A15 and use that as the enforcement spot for B's live ball foul. Or, A could decline the foul (dumb)and take the result play.

If I messed this up, let me know.

Good post, AB.

Sorry, but it's still a loose-ball play as defined in the book- A fumble by A behind the NZ prior to change of team possession INCLUDING the run that preceeds such fumble.

In your play we'd enforce B's foul from the 20 then administer the dead ball foul against A.

<i>so if A1 has a 2-7, runs 5 yards and fumbles 4 yards and OB. That would be a 1-10 since the ball went 9 yards?</i>


Yes, it would.

But back to the enforcement - I was wrong. Since it's a loose ball play, we have to enforce from the previous spot. If he had been tackled by the face mask and not fumbled, it would be a safety and then we would enforce from the goal line. The case book has a play almost identical to this one. (maybe that's where I got the idea!)

Sorry, my bad.

[Edited by ABoselli on Jan 2nd, 2003 at 02:00 PM]

Andrew,

You're right! I got so involved in the details that I neglected to reconcile the fumble behind the LOS. For anyone interested, this is a loose ball play according to 10-3-1c.

Thanks, Andrew.;)

Mr Neil,
As I read the "All-but-one" principal, it appears to me that this principal has more to do with "where" you spot the ball than where you enforce the penalty. I'm learning... [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes you are learning old buddy, but I'm sad to report.....you got it WRONG AGAIN! LOL just kidding you 8^)
Seriously, the "all but one" and the basic spot are for EFORCEMENT purposes only. Read my post and try to visualize all this, step by step in your mind.


"All but One"
The “all-but-one” principle determines the spot of enforcement and is based upon knowing WHO committed the foul and WHERE the foul was committed relative to the basic spot of enforcement. Here’s what it says:

“All-but-one” Principle
If the foul was by…the Defense…and it occurred…Beyond the Basic Spot…then enforce the penalty from…the Basic Spot
~~~~~~~~
If the foul was by…the Defense…and it occurred...Behind the Basic Spot...then enforce the penalty from…the Basic Spot
~~~~~~~~
If the foul was by…the Offense...and it occurred...Beyond the Basic Spot...then enforce the penalty from...the Basic Spot
~~~~~~~~~
If the foul was by the Offense...and it occurred...Behind the Basic Spot...then enforce the penalty from...the Spot of the Foul

All situations except one are enforced from the basic spot. The exception is a foul by the offense that occurs behind the basic spot. Then you enforce from the spot of the foul. That’s why it’s important that on live ball player fouls to throw your flag to the spot of the foul.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~

BTW...
I'm very glad to see you've slowed down enough to try to learn and understand how all this really works. This isn't easy. It takes a lot of hard work. It's a no-brainer to suit up and run around the field looking like you know what your doing in front of those who haven’t a clue as to the rules or how this is done properly .I work my a$$ off studying this stuff and still kick em once in a while (as we all have seen 8^). but I keep at it because none of us are bigger then the game Derock, and we owe it to all those involved to get it right and be as professional as we can while doing it. Learning the rules and mechanics provided to us by the Feds is going provide you a better foundation upon which you'll sharpen your "game sense" and learn how to better apply your judgment. This is probably the hardest part to understand but once you get it things will start to fall into place. Next thing you need to do is learn how to find the basic spot. We do this by determining what type of play was in progress at the time of that foul, either a loose ball play or a running play. But that’s another day.
Keep up the good work.

For NFHS that is correct with the clock on the snap.
For NCAA the ball is returned to the spot of the fumble (at your trusty bean bag spot), the clock is on the ready and it would be 3rd and 2.

Yep, you are correct. Thanks for pointing this out. Good post!

I'm still learning.

It likely wouldn't be at the "end of the run", because that would be a safety - ball fumbled from the endzone out into the field of play and then out of bounds, without touching. A has to accept the penalty to avoid the safety, and they have to accept it either (a) at the goal line or (b) at the line of scrimmage. (Canadian ruling)

[/QUOTE]
distance back to the goal line for the A RP. 11 + 15 = 26, then to the 13. 1st and 10 for A.
[/B][/QUOTE]

The only issue here is interpretive, and I doubt it a difficult one. Is the punch/swear word a UR/Objectionable, a Rough Play/Objectionable, or a Rough Play alone.

I'd adjudicate it a Rough Play alone, *UNLESS* the "bad word" was a racial or religious slur, in which case, I get out the objectionable - or worse.

A) A1's actions are considered Rough Play alone:

Ball goes from the three to the 18 (3+15) for the B UR, then half the distance for the RP = at the nine yard line, third down repeated.

C) As above - same result, as the RP is only half the distance to the goal.

B) A1's actions are considered to be UR + Objectionable
Ball goes from the three to the 18 for the B UR, then half the distance for the 15-yard (nine yard line) then half the distance for the additive Objectionable (which in Canadian is just ten yards, btw), ergo, third down on the 4.5 yard line.

Clear as mud? Welcome to Canadian ball. :)