OK, I'm new here so if this topic has been discussed, I apologize.

A situation occured in a playoff game I attended but did not work. I'll post the question without telling what the crew did at this point because I want responses based on interpretation, not people trying to back the crew, although about half the officials I talk to say they did it right, and half say they did it wrong. I find no support in the NFHS rule book to say one way or the other.

The question is this, when is the clock considered stopped after a requested time out?

Actual play:

Team A has the ball, down 7, in last seconds of the game with one time out left. QB rolls right. Ref follows play. QB is sacked and turns quickly to ask for the TO. Ref, by coincidence of his positioning, has QB and game clock in same line of sight and sees the request is given with tenths of a second on the clock, but of course they tick off before he can turn, give signal and get the clock stopped.

Like most high schools, there is only one clock and it's behind one end zone. If the team had been going the other way, the Ref would nothave been able to see the TO and clock.

At no other time do we consider the time elapsed in the delay of request to signal to stoppage an issue.

But if an incomplete pass hits the ground and an official knows there was time left, I think we'd agree that another play should be awarded. Is this the same sort of thing?

Is the game over?

As you described, the Ref sees time remaining after the TO request was made.

Ruling should have been Team A has a time out with however much time remaining.

If the clock expires as the Ref is signaling time out, then 1 second should be added back to the clock.

where the 1 second added came from I don't know.
if the qb turns to the white hat and calls a time out the white out gives the signal. the clock official should be watching for this signal on the field anyway because it can come from any official. the white hat does not have to turn around to face the booth to signal time out.also there is a clock on the field also. so the white hat should go to his line judge(who should have the clock in a 4 or 5 man game) and ask him if time expired.

if the white hat saw the clock and it had under 1 second on it and he thinks the qb got the time out to him before time expired, he could also have the game extended to one more down and explain his reason to each coach.(I can bet one coach you be hapopy and another pissed)

at no time should a white hat turn around and look at the clock to see if it ran out before the qb got the time out call to him.

now to answer your question about this call. I would have to say since the hat saw time left on the clock then we play one more down.

Time to go home!
 

If I were the R, GAME OVER!

My opinion is that taking the TO request from a player and giving the signal precedes stopping the clock. If A didn't manage their time effectively, then that's tough luck at such a critical time.

And the 1 second suggestion. Why award A another play (possibly game winning) just because it was a close call? Doesn't that provide A with an advantage?

Our association had a similar play. About :01 seconds remaining, clock stopped for 1st down. A gets his team to the line so that he can snap the ball and spike it to stop the clock and line up for a game winning field goal. The R whistles ready for play as the ball is snapped. The QB spikes the ball. The U had the clock. The crew (after much deliberation) called "game over" to a chorus of boos! The ruling from them, "the QB was not able to snap and spike the ball before the time elapsed"! What's your call?

p.s. And please let's not get into how some clocks operate, the timer, etc.

Re: Time to go home!
 

The way he described the play, the Ref was looking at the clock, saw time was remaining when A signaled for a time out. If the clock expired as the R blew his whistle or gave the signal to stop the clock, then A should be given 1 second OR given 1 play.

There is no way a QB can snap the ball, step from underneath the center, and spike the ball in 1 second. I would think there would have to be at least 3 seconds on the clock at the snap for any possibility of another play.

Rock,

My point was that regardless of the fact that the player requested the time out with a fraction of a second left, the time out is not granted until the Ref blows his whistle and signals. We have all called numerous time outs and it's taken the clock 1-3 seconds to stop. The fact that the Ref happened to see some time on the clock when the player asked for the time out is not material to me. That is part of the game! But, your fabrication of putting 1 second on the clock or awarding A another play isn't right. No foundation!


I agree with you on the spike. No way he can snap and spike in a second.

ok first of all there is a very good chance a qb can get the snap and spike the ball in under 1 second. .09 .08 .07 .06 .05 .04 .03 .02 .01 .00


second- if thers .04 left on the clock when the qb calls it he gets another play. time did not expire.

now spiking the ball would be very hard with 1 second left but its possible to do. the clock stops as soon as the ball hits the ground.


most youth leagues and high school field don't have clocks with tenths of a second on them but don not say its not possible to get the play off. your linejudge has a clock with tenths of seconds on it.

i guess you guys are thinking the best thing to do is run the clock out and end the game saying theres no time left since most people also don't think you can get a play off. yet it is possible to get this play off and still get another chance.

and to answer the question posted, there is time left when the white hat gets the time out call from the qb. they get another try....

if anyone is a b ball ref in here they can tell you that its not impossible to get the ball TAKE A DRIBBLE (this being the key word)and shot with 1 second left.


thanks,

JMN<

right call on your play, with .01 left the clock expires as soon as the qb gets the ball. no way he can get it and spike it also in .01 seconds. I just don't see why this coach didn't pass or run the ball.hell superman couldn't take a snap and spike in under.01 seconds.

thanks

BBall Refs I would like to here your response to this one. Take the ball, DRIBBLE, then shoot in 1 second? Catch and shoot--yes but dribble--I doubt it.

To receive the snap and take 1 step backwards will take at least 1 second. The spike must be a forward pass immediately in the ground. I just don't see how a spike can be performed in LESS than a second. I still say not possible.

derock have you ever worked a game with a clock that had tenths of seconds on it?


i am also a b ball official and have seen players take a pass with 1 second left dribble once and shoot before the buzzer goes off.

now in football you don't have the buzzer but its possible to get a play off and spike with 1 second. have i ever seen it in football no, because what coach would try it.

HSWH,

This isn't basketball so at least with most of my schools, we're not dealing with a sub 1 second clock.

I'm saying that most kids wouldn't be able to get the ball snapped and legally spiked in a second. Maybe if they're the home team and it's their clock operator (but let's not go there).

So, I guess here's the question. In timing the game, is the time out "official" when the player REQUESTS it or when it is GRANTED to him by an official? I think this is where the disagreement lies. My interpretation of the rules is that the time out (clock stopped) when the official GRANTS the time out to the team. And, to do this takes some time to administer.

I guess WhiteHat9 was right about 50% agreeing with the call and 50% disagreeing.

Thats your call JMN. My call is A gets another play because I saw A signal for time out with time remaining. I keep the official time in my games and I always stop the clock THEN blow my whistle and signal time out. When seconds become critical, why cheat the team out of valuable seconds just so you can blow your whistle and give a signal. If you're not holding the clock, then you should have your whistle in your mouth anticipating the time out request. You're killing the team if you're not in position to grant their time out as soon as they request it.

A quickly requests time out. JMN acknowledges the time out request and it is valid--JMN then puts his whistle in his mouth, blows it, and waves his arms, then the clock stops. A just lost 2 seconds. Probably OK in the normal course of the game but not when theres 10 seconds or less remaining in a close game.

Looks like its 50/50 here, too.

If I'm the R and I can plainly see 1 second left when he calls it, I give him the 1 second. I think an R has to be conscious of the fact that this scenario is probably coming with the clock winding down and a potential TO being called. Just like if there's a pass or run for a first down, be ready to kill it as everyone in the place will look up at the clock the instant they hear the whistle. During the toss, I tell the captains that if they want a TO, they should find one of us and say it to us <i>facing us</i> - not the silent T with the hands, either. This is because in a tight game at the end of either half, the entire sideline is screaming "TIME OUT!!" and if the play ended near the sideline, I don't want a TO called because the coach yelled it.

In basketball, isn't there a rule that if there's less and .4 seconds, there can only be a tip in after the inbounds pass, anything over that, play on? Maybe it's just NCAA's.

I have never seen an official football clock with tenths of a second. Does the NFL use tenths of a second? I don't use tenths of a second in my games.

my thought on this play was that I know this time out call is coming so I want to be ready to call it as soon as a player asked for it. When he asks for it I blow and give the time out signal. if im looking at the clock when I signal time out and I see time left, he gets that time. he can run another play.


derock, why do you as a ref have the clock? do some associations have their ref's running a clock also just like the linesmen and linejudge 3 man games??

some high schools have tenths of seconds on their clocks for football.


Now the nfl???????????? i have to watch for that now. I never paid it no mind before.

derock if youre keeping a clock on the field must timer watches have tenths on them

Not sure what the rule book says about the type of clock to use but I use a Casio sports watch with the time winding down by the second. It says 1 second or 0 second. Even if it says 1 second, the actual time could be tenths of a second. But if the coach or player asks, the official time remaining will be given in whole seconds and not tenths of a second.

Now before someone beats me up, this is how "I" run "my" game clock. I'm not quoting anything from the rule book so if you want to know what the rule book says, you will have to look it up.

Do you ever get out much?
 

Is that because all 500 of your games have been worked on the same field?
Is the only clock you are familiar with that portable temporary clock your PEE WEE league provides?

Is that because all of your BIG games are timed on your wristwatch?

Hey Derock -
Under Maryland Modified By County Rules, when a clock is stopped at 0:00.9 is the period over?
How about when it reads 0:00.2?
Please advise!!!

Re: Do you ever get out much?
 

KWH,
did I piss in your oatmeal or something?

Why are you trying to bait me into a debate?

Everything I post is picked apart and tossed back at me.

If you want to know what happened, here it is.

R awards the TO because he could tell there was .2 sec left. Because there is no way to run the clock down to 0:00.2 and stop it, they run a play with no time, although both coaches were informed what was going on, so that's not a big deal.

Team A throws the ball into the endzone where a defender bats it down, right into the arms of a receiver. Touchdown. PAT good, Overtime. There the team that was ahead on that last, disputed play, ended up winning.

Personally, I say game over. Football, unlike basketball, does not stop on the whistle, so blowing the whistle is not key to it, from my point of view.

Also, we view the field clock as official unless there is a problem, then it will be kept on the field. There was no clock on the field that night, although the field clock was being run by an official.

To expand my point. The delay of a second or two is part of the game on every other play. Like a holld on the last play should be a hold on the first, so too is the running of the clock. Secondly, there is only one stadium in my area with a clock on both ends of the field. If this play had happened any other way, the R would not have known there was 2 tenths of a second left when the TO was requested and the game would have been over.

My biggest concern, however, is that the rule book does not address it. If NFHS rules one way or the other, I'm OK with it. I'd just like to see it in there.

[Edited by White hat9 on Dec 30th, 2002 at 03:13 PM]

Do you have an "L" on your shirt for Loser?
 

Simple answer: You are a joke!
More Complex answer: You don't take the game of football serious enough to even buy or read a rulebook. You may have found a crack in the system that lets you wear a striped uniform and mascarade as a "Line Judge on a three man crew". (Your words not mine!) But you will never be a Football Official Derock simply because you don't have what it takes! You have proven that to all of us on this board.
Do us all a favor and take up officiating Tiddly Winks! But buy the rulebook first!

Nuff said

[Edited by KWH on Dec 30th, 2002 at 03:33 PM]

My 2 cents:

In the situation described A gets a play! If I am facing the "wrong" direction then I'm having a conference with my crew (4 man for rec ball) to see if they had time on the clock when the QB asks for time. If no one can confirm the time status then game over. Having said that, except for championship games, rec fields do not have a field clock. The LJ will keep the game clock and most likely the game would be over. That would be dependent on what has occured during the rest of the game; a hard fought, tight contest will have less "creative timing" than a game where the outcome is obvious by the middle of the third quarter. (I may hear from some of you purists out there, but in this one instance, Derock is correct: You officiate rec games differently than high school. Don't read too much into this Derock, sounds to me you have one years experience seven times!)

As far as game clocks with tenths of seconds, here in Northern Virginia we have several schools with these type of clocks (some you can disable and some you can't). Generally, they are multi-pourpose keyboards that can be used for several different sports depending on the start up code entered.

Usually, I'm the line judge but whichever position I work, I keep the clock. Not trying to brag but I run a pretty tight and efficient clock. Most crews fall behind schedule sometimes more than an hour late. Not me, my games start on schedule. The only time I'm ever late is when we have to stop the game for a emergency medical vehicle (which is not often--twice in 7 years).

Re: Do you have an
 

Well not quite enough said LOL ,

I couldn't have said it better myself KWH (although I've certainly been trying)
But you don’t think I'd let "The Anti-Ref" off that easy do you?You guys must know that no matter which position Derock works he MUST be the one with the clock . He's got to get these games completed within the 25 minutes allotted per game dag-nab -it!!! If not for "The A-R" how else would these games be played fairly in this time, with no team gaining an unfair advantage…huh , huh, tell me ?
If not for the Anti Ref and his superior fan-officiating game sense, time management ability who knows what chaos would occur
Bt really guys ,you don’t really think he'd actually allow another official to hold the clock do you?

derock , derock , derock,

what the hell? you take the clock to make sure the games are over and you don't fall behind schedule? what kind of official are you. derock these are kids,give them a fair clock even if theres a blow out. in blow outs this is when the coaches can get their subs in. most games will still get over in 1 1/2 hour.(youth ball)so derock works for the money and he runs the clock to make sure his games get over on schedule. good job derock. please stay in maryland youth ball because you couldn't cut it in pa.

derock doesn't your association have mechanics??? I never heard of you taking the clock no matter what position.


as for the time out for b ball and the time out for football, the time out for b ball is on the whistle yes(thats because the stop stops on every whistle in b ball)

when a player calls time out in football towards the end of the game and you know its coming(because most coaches will be screaming to their players to use it)its also on the whistle. most clock operaters are officials they know whats going on inthis situation.

example: qb calls time out, i blow my whistle and then signal time out. time out was giving when i blew my whistle not on my signal.(LineJudge knows when to stop clock in this situation) i call my crew in and ask the linejudge if there is any time left. yes or no. then I go explain to the coaches that we either have time left or time expired.

derock casio watches all have tenths of seconds on them. unless you have one from 1960

KWH and Mr Neil
You two have convinced me that I don't deserve to wear my stripes. I am officially retired as of today. I will never attempt or even think about stepping on the field again. I will leave the officiating to those who truly knows what it is to be an official (like KWH and Mr Neil--the "true", one and only officials). I know you two will be living legends before you're done and at least I can say I was shown the light by two of the greatest officials I have never seen.

Having said that, could you two please stop attacking me. If you disagree with my posts--its OK. If you want to continue to post insulting statements about me--it's OK too. But don't you think this stuff is getting a little childish.

Continue as you please but I will no longer respond to any insulting posts directed towards me so don't waste your time.

derock,

continue to officiate but do thr ight thing and get better. listen to what you are saying sometimes

my games get started on schedule? so what most do

i always have the clock? mechanics dictate who has the clock not you.

you sound like when youre the linejudge its your game and nobody can stop you. if you think game sense dictates games then youre wrong. thats like letting a parent officiate a game. as long as you wear the stripes go by the rules. game sense??? no way, game sense is for people watching on tv and in the stands. preventive officiatating? yes yes yes.
keep officiating derock but try and get a better feel for what the game is about. I know youth ball can get crazy at times. and if a game is 55-0 like you say and you find a penalty each time, what good is that doing. most leagues have fines for running up the scores. if the starters are still in yes find a hold because you always can, but if its the subs don't take a td away from a kid because you didn't want to see the score 62-0. its not your problem what the score of a game is , let the leagues handle it. most leagues also have a running clock after a team is up by a certain amount of points. you do know that if the team down scores, the receiving team(team winning at this point) can elect to kick off if they choice. thats what most good coaches would do anyway in a youth game. give the ball right back to the team down. don't take a td away from a sub because you didn't want a blow out derock. would you like that to happen to your child if he was running for a td?

thanks

<i>I am officially retired as of today</i>

Well, I guess that settles it. Happy retirement.