Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, and Happy New Year fellow officials...

I was reading the December 2002 issue of Referee magazine and was curious about the answer to question 4 (page 34).

Team A's ball 1st and 10 at their 20 yard line. A1 runs the ball and is hit and fumbles at his 23 yard line. The ball rolls out of bounds at A's 20 yard line.

Under NF rules, the correct answer should be A's ball 2nd and 10 at their 20 yard line. Clock starts on the snap.

The answer given is A's ball 2nd and 7 at the 20 yard line. Clock starts on the snap.

Any reason why the answer says 2nd and 7?

Under NF rules, the correct answer should be A's ball 2nd and 10 at their 20 yard line. Clock starts on the snap.

The answer given is A's ball 2nd and 7 at the 20 yard line. Clock starts on the snap.

Any reason why the answer says 2nd and 7? [/B][/QUOTE]

The only reason I can think of it's one of the mistakes that happens once in a while in these quizzes . That or they've given A1 the benefit of his forward progress, which sure don't sound right to me. At least for NF .

Probably just a misprint.





Doc

The answer should be 2nd and 7 at the 23. Clock starts on the snap.

On a fumble by A, the ball is spotted where it was last possessed if the ball is not recovered by A or B.

Before anyone asks, I'm not quoting this from any rule book but if someone looks it up, I'm sure you will find it (NFHS).

If I'm wrong, please correct me (as I know you all will).

Wrong.

The short of it- it's where the ball goes out.

You might want to quote from some rulebook.

Derock- what if the ball rolled back and out of the side of the endzone? A still has it 2nd and 7 at the 23?!? Interesting.

Out of the endzone is not the same as OOB. Endzone would be a safety. What happens if the ball is fumbled forward OOB? I always thought you spot the ball where it was last in possession. If the ball is fumbled forward out of the side of B endzone then it would be a touch back.

If i'm wrong correct me. I've been wrong and corrected about everything else so at least you can say I have been consistently wrong (mostly because I can't find my rule book).

It's where the ball goes out. Period. You're right about the endzones- safety or touchback.

Andrew is correct, it is where the ball went out of bounds. The NCAA rules may be different from this. I am certainly not well versed in the NCAA rules, but I think it does have something to do with where it was last possessed. But not NFHs, its where it goes out.

As for the end zone, its a force issue. How it gets in the enzone has everything to do with how its called.


Doc

Are you sure--NFHS???

I hate I don't have my rule book to refer to but I am almost certain you do not spot the ball where it goes out of bounds. A cannot gain yardage beyond the spot where it was lost if they do not recover the fumble.

If i'm wrong I guess I really do need to study my rule book more. I have been beat up so much in here, I'm really starting to second guess myself.

Has he seen the light?!?!?!
 

If i'm wrong I guess I really do need to study my rule book more. I have been beat up so much in here, I'm really starting to second guess myself.

I never thought we'd see the day. LOL

<i>If the ball is fumbled forward out of the side of B endzone then it would be a touch back.</i>


If its fumbled out of the back of B's endzone, it is a touchback as well, not just the side.

Derock, you are truly and example of the Peter Principal.

Derock, this post is in all sincerity and I mean you no harm or disrespect. I’m apologizing for all the negative comments and my unprofessional demeanor. But brother I’m asking you to please give us a break
I registered at this site in Sept of 2000. Its format and moderation has made it one of my favorites. Of all the ones I regularly post at this one has maintained the best decorum of the lot... I’ve not run across anything like your postings here or any other board for that matter since I started doing this. Every official I’ve seen post here the last two and a half years has shown all the integrity and professionalism expected from men and women pursuing this avocation. There are some of the most experienced and knowledgeable officials in this country posting at this site. This can’t be said about some other officials and fans posting at other boards. I come to this forum to study and learn how to officiate using NFHS rules. Many others do too. Then there are some who are interested in learning both NFHS and NCAA rules. Occationaly we even get someone asking about NFL rules or a fan asking for clarification about something they've seen on a Friday, Saturday or Sunday ball game. I'm wondering why you come here. What is it you're trying to contribute to this board? You tell us you read your book every year before the season starts then refer to it during the season when necessary . Are you reading the same one you got when you first started 7 years ago, or do you get one from your association ever year just like all the rest of us do? How and when do the officials in your association take their annual NFHS test? Do you take the NFHS test open or closed book? And what’s the lowest score Maryland will accept for certification? You must know this as you've told us you could have worked HS ball if you'd wanted too. If you were posting to every thread at this board for learning purposes or if you even had a post where you were asking about something you’re not sure of and need clarification I’d commend your enthusiasm. But you’re shooting from the hip and giving fanatic rulings aren’t helping you or anyone here one bit.
Derock , My daddy used to tell me it’s better to keep your mouth shut and have people think you a fool , then to open it and remove all doubt . Take some time and just read the posts. Then ask some questions. Stop trying to teach. You’ll build credibility a lot faster that way. Some integrity might follow. And then I stop getting all wound up and go back to my happy place 8^)

Mr Neil,
I didn't know this forum was reserved for those who wish to teach others the rules. It is my understanding of forums to be places where all can come and share open free communication on items of shared interest. I didn't come here to teach nor be taught. You probably can learn a few things here but I certainly would not take any posts from a forum as factual information without verifying it through a more credible source.

I initially sought out this forum because I had a situation occur in a game and I wasn't certain on the correct ruling. Not being able to find my rule book, I thought I could find my answer online. Before posting in this forum, I thought I had a thorough understanding of the rules. I shared my experiences here with the guys on my crew and they all laughed after finding out that I am considered the least knowledgeable and most controversial of all the officials who post here.

Honestly, I still do believe I have a thorough understanding of the rules but the forum has convinced me that I need to study more. The reason why I need to study is apparent from my posts--to build creditibility and respect amongst other officials. I maintain that I know enough about the rules to officiate in any game under NFHS rules but being respected by ones peers is also important.

Every year the officials in my association receive a current year NFHS rule book. We have a preseason conference to discuss NFHS rules, training camp for new officials, county rule differences, and other things. We even had a well-known NFL official (R) at our conference this past year. The state of Maryland does not require you to be certified as an official for youth but our association does issue a 100 question, open-book test.

I tried to answer all of your questions but if I didn't I apologize. I will attempt to answer all questions directed towards me but I will also continue to post freely in this forum my views, comments, opinions and experiences as a youth official under NFHS rules.

I'm curious about something...
 

Derock, I'm curious about something. Now, before I ask my question, I want you to know that I am NOT trying to blast you. I know there are a lot of other guys on this forum who really have an utter disdain for you. I really don't have those same feelings. In fact, if I wanted, I could just ignore everything you say and read everything else. I don't do that, I read everyone's posts. But what I want to know is this, why don't you want to do high school games? That really puzzles me. I'm sure it puzzles everyone else too.

Allow me to give you an example of how my season runs. This year I did 100 football games. I officiated way more games than anyone else in my district. Here is how I did it. An average week for me.
Monday----Youth doubleheader
Tuesday----Youth doubleheader
Wednesday---No football, church night
Thursday---Middle school/JV (doubleheader about 50%)
Friday----High school varsity game
Saturday---Youth (varies, usually 3-5 games)
Sunday----No football, church

At the end of the year, I always do as many Youth playoffs as I can. This year I did a bunch of them.

Here's my point of view. I love football, almost more than anything else. I eat, sleep, and drink football. But if someone told me that I had to give up my Friday night game and only do the other stuff, I would most likely quit. Its like eating a big meal and then NOT getting your dessert. I love youth football, I do a ton of it. But, there's just something about being on that field on friday night in front of THOUSANDS of fans. Rather than on a field thats barely marked properly and maybe 20-30 fans. I work my tail off to do the best job I possibly can, no matter what level of play it is. But, I couldn't imagine not doing the Varsity game. Its a totally different feeling. My co-workers tell me that I'm a different person on friday afternoons. I know why, its because long about 2:00 in the afternoon I'm beginning to get my "game face" on. Just like a player, an official gets excited about doing the nice games.

Again, sorry for the long post. But Derock, why is it that you've been doing this for 7 years and have no desire to do Varsity games? Seriously, it shouldn't be about money. Because I made a bunch this year, and you can see my schedule above. I even had an opportunity to do a Youth tournament real late in the season. It started on Dec.7th. I decided to NOT do it. The reason was because the tournament started the same day the South Carolina High School state finals were to be played. No, I didn't have a state final, but I wanted to go and watch. And, so I balked on doing some youth games. Seriously, Derock, why don't you want to do Varsity games??


Doc

Re: I'm curious about something...
 

Its not that I don't want to do them, I am just comfortable with doing youth. The time/days of the games fit perfectly into my schedule and I make more money doing youth (at least this is what I hear from officials in my association who gave up varsity to do youth). Don't get me wrong, I love the game of football and would probably officiate most of my games for free but having extra cash around Christmas time is certainly an added incentive. The thought of doing varsity does excite me and I may pursue it one day strictly for the new challenges it will bring but for now I'm content with just doing youth.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Mr Neil,
"I didn't know this forum was reserved for those who wish to teach others the rules".

It's not and I never said it was
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~
I initially sought out this forum because I had a situation occur in a game and I wasn't certain on the correct ruling.

In just one game ?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~
"Before posting in this forum, I thought I had a thorough understanding of the rules".
"Honestly, I still do believe I have a thorough understanding of the rules"

Which is it Derock?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~

The reason why I need to study is apparent from my posts--to build creditibility and respect amongst other officials.

Derock, you could know the book by heart and never gain creditability and respect. And in the same vain, know nothing of the rules and have tons of it. I know you think you have enough game sense and savvy to do games without knowing the rules but why not study them so you know how to apply the rules and manage the game the way it should be? (You are so lacking in your rules knowledge, I can just imagine you mechanics)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~
"I maintain that I know enough about the rules to officiate in any game under NFHS rules"

Not in any Oregon High School you don't

.

[/B][/QUOTE]

I believe I understand this comment but wanted clarification. You are refering strictly to youth games, correct? I assume different youth league "counties" modify the rules slightly and counties rule changes don't always agree?

If this is the case, then your youth leagues are far advanced beyond ours by having a discussion of the rules for youth officials. Around here, we are lucky if we have a rulebook thrust in our hands before the game starts. ;)

Referee magazine
 

Referee screws up an awful lot on those quizzes. That's one of the reasons I decided not to subscribe. Sloppy writing and editing; not very professional.

Correct. Each county has slight modifications to the NFHS rules.

Ball is marked where it went out of bounds.

Rock, you asked to be corrected if wrong on the call. Two fellow officials and myself suggested what we consider the 'right' answer to be to mark the ball where it went out of bounds, not at the forward progress spot.

So, I guess you have three choices: 1)agree with us, 2) disagree with us and check out the correct ruling in the rule book (I know you don't have one, but that's the place to go to settle the disagreement), 3)ignore us and continue to call it according to your opinion. If you choose # 3, why even post if you don't value others opinions?

Seriously, if you want me to drag out my book and look it up, I would be happy to do that for you. Just let me know.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Doc Moore, I can really identify with the "Friday afternoon haze" when all you think about is the night's games. And as much as I love youth football for kids' pure motivation, Friday nights are the "show". The smell of the grass, the lights, the band playing, the Star Bangled Banner! Heck, I can't wait for the fall.....

I value others opinions about as much as they value mine. If you don't mind looking up the rule in the NFHS rule book and posting here, I would certainly appreciate it.

Question again:
Where do you spot the ball on a fumble out of bounds?

1) Where the ball goes out.
2) Where the ball was in last possession (the spot where he fumbled).

Hope this clears it up. Please get a rule book!
 

Where do you spot the ball on a fumble out of bounds?

1) Where the ball goes out.

>> Rule 2-28-3: " A loose ball is out of bounds when it touches anything, including a player or game offical, who is out of bounds."

>> Rule 4-3-1: "When a loose ball goes out of bounds, the out-of-bounds spot is fixed by the yard line where the foremost point of the ball crossed the sideline."


2) Where the ball was in last possession (the spot where he fumbled).

According to my interpretation of the rules, the spot where the run ended (where the player lost possession/fumbled), has no impact on this play. This would only be important if you had a penalty that needed to be enforced from the end of the run, but not for determining the dead ball spot of the ball for this play.

A live ball remains live until it is determined to be a dead ball by Rule 4-2 including Article 2b: "The ball becomes dead and the down is ended: When a live ball goes out of bounds."

Think about it, Rock. If a QB threw a backward pass over the back's head out of bounds, you wouldn't spot the ball where he threw from, would you? It would go back to the spot that the ball broke the plane of the sideline. Same application here. Make sense?

Dr.Moore,

move here to philadelphia, pa. we have varisty games thursday,friday,saturday and sundays.

VARISTY
Thursday and fridays- phila public league
Saturday- phila public league- piaa
Sunday- phila catholic league

middle school games on mondays, tuesday and wednesdays.
we have enough games for anyone to do.

youth games all weekend. friday,saturday and sunday.

Re: Hope this clears it up. Please get a rule book!
 

Thanks for correcting me. I do need a rule book.

That would be awesome
 

Highschoolwhitehat.....

Man, that sounds awesome. I can imagine that Philly would be a great place to call football games. I bet there are some good sized crowds there too.

Only one problem.... its entirely too damn cold up there for me. Don't get me wrong, I like a little crispness in the air. I don't even mind putting on longjohns and cold weather undergear. But when you start getting into gloves and eargaitors, then its too darn cold.

But all that football does sound pretty good to me.


Doc

doc,
its not all that bad.(hahahhah)


most youth league rules that are modified from nfhs rules are little changes. the only rules i ever came across that was modified in youth ball was in 55 lb games all face masked are 10 yards, running clocks for points leads,time outs,extra point,(in out youth games a kick is 2 a run is 1), no number system,and whenever the qb is in a shot gun you have to get off the centers head no matter if the qb is in a 7 yard drop or not.

NCAA rules state that if the ball is fumbled forward out of bounds between the goal lines it will be returned to the spot of the fumble. If the ball is fumbled backwards out of bounds it will be dead at the spor where it went out of bounds. This rule is to not allow teams to fumble forward to improve their position on the field.

Is there a fourth down and/or last 2 minutes of half or game fumble provision in the NCAA book like in the pros?