I thought it best to get away from the thread that this subject evolved from. It’s driving me crazy why you know who is driving me so crazy LOL. Any who , Doc’s post about tossing a flag for an USC in a youth game and then thinking twice about it , got me thinking about a situation that happened to me this last year .

Running play by the team whose leading big time late in the game ends OOB on my sideline (I’m LJ, 3-man, PW midgets) I toss my bag at the OOB spot and follow the players OOB watching the dead ball action. I retrieve ball and am coming back onto the field when I see a B52 contact A32 (the runner) by bringing his arm from his hip, open handed with his heal of his palm directly too the back of the A32 while A32 was walking back to his huddle. I say “hey, knock it off” and toss my flag. All of this happened in plain view of B52’ sideline and coach. The WH comes over and asks what I got; I tell him B52 punched A32 after the play. The B coach is protesting that it wasn’t a punch, it was open handed. The WH asks me if it was a punch or a push. I told him B52 struck A32 in the back. He said that’s good enough for me he’s out of here, and ejected the kid. After thinking all this over, I really wish I’d reported this as a dead ball personal foul. B52’s action were clearly in anger and frustration but I feel this particular foul could have been better handled with a 15 yarder and a little talk .

BTW, I talked to the kid’s father after the game and he said he though we did the right thing.

Mr. Neil...

I certainly don't think you should feel bad about that call one tiny bit. The way you desrcibed that situation, I think a good percentage of guys would have thrown him out of the game. The players(especially at that age) need to learn valuable lessons about how to conduct themselves on an athletic field.

Another way to look at that. What if had allowed him to stay and then the next play an all-out fight broke out? Its certainly possible that might have happened.

I think your "game sense" was definately working on that play.


Doc

I threw a kid out of a game for the first time ever in my career this year. He took a swing at a kid with an open hand as well. He connected on the side of the other kids head. No question in my mind - he had to go, frustration or not. Its learning how to comport one's self when one is frustrated that's important.

Letting that stuff go is a recipe for disaster.

Mr Neil,
what you described sounds more like a shove than a punch. Nothing wrong with the call you made but of course I would have handled it differently. I would not have penalized a frustrated B team who was already losing big late in the game. Instead, I would have sat B52 down for the remainder of the game, kept my flag, and explained to B52 and B coach why he could not return.

[
Mr Neil,
what you described sounds more like a shove than a punch. Nothing wrong with the call you made but of course I would have handled it differently. I would not have penalized a frustrated B team who was already losing big late in the game. Instead, I would have sat B52 down for the remainder of the game, kept my flag, and explained to B52 and B coach why he could not return. [/B][/QUOTE]

Ah yes, more of this modification of the NFHS rules. Just what provision in the anti-refing rules allows you the privilege to use this procedure, or are you just trying to piss me off? NO WAIT ! don’t answer that . Please don’t , don’t know how much more I can take AHHHHHHHH !!!!!!!!!1

<i>I would have sat B52 down for the remainder of the game</i>

If there's more than one person in front of you in the bathroom line, you're gonna miss one of derock's games. B52's seat of shame will be momentary.

Ah yes, more of this modification of the NFHS rules. Just what provision in the anti-refing rules allows you the privilege to use this procedure, or are you just trying to piss me off? NO WAIT ! don’t answer that . Please don’t , don’t know how much more I can take AHHHHHHHH !!!!!!!!!1 [/B][/QUOTE]

Not trying to piss you off Mr Neil. You know I don't have my rule book but I know I have read NFHS rules allow you to sit any player for whatever reason, for any amount of time deemed necessary to include the remainder of the game.

The decisions that a REFEREE makes are final. In all matters pertaining to the game.

I have had a couple of instances that I did something like this. Here is the description.... I had a player who was continually running his mouth after every single play. He was teetering on the edge. At the fisrt opportunity I had, I spoke with his coach. I told the coach that the player was about to be ejected if something wasn't done about it. I went on to suggest he rectify the situation, so I wouldn't have to. It worked. He was removed from the game without a flag being thrown.

Now, with that said. I don't think this situation is like that at all. If I see a player walking back to his huddle with his back turned, and then a player of the opposing team does what THIS guy did, he's GONE. This was not a guy running his mouth. This was a cheap shot, whether it was closed fist or open hand. He needs to understand that this type of conduct is UNacceptable.

The referee can indeed do alot of things to rectify a situation. The rulebook makes that clear. But, there are times when a player just needs to be ejected.


Doc

I don't know Doc. It sounds a lot like to me (as Mr Neil described) that the guy shoved him in the back. A shove is not acceptable either but shouldn't be handled the same as if he had thrown a punch. A punch is an automatic ejection, a shove is a 15-yard penalty. In the situation described by Mr Neil (a shove, not a punch), I don't find it necessary to penalize B who is already losing big, late in the game. You don't need a sledge hammer to kill a fly, when a fly swatter will get the job done. Remove the player from the game and let the game continue.

J. Neil,

Without seeing this one, it's impossible to know for sure how each of us might handle it due to the fact that it's a judgement call. Like a PI call, we might each see it and call it a bit differently.

From your description, I would probably have held my flag, but got in front of the kid to have a discussion. But, I will hasten to say that since I didn't see the play, my answer is hypothetical and I'm not criticizing your call.

My method to deal with this would be to first get his attention (as you guys know, many of these kids keep walking or pretend not to hear you). If I have to, I'll ask him away from the huddle and force him to look me directly in my eyes. Then, I explain that this is totally unacceptable, why, and that I am watching him; one foot fault and you're gone! Additionally, I sometimes verbally yell (intentionally) to the other officials "watch #28 for cheap shots). This usually (at youth level) puts the kid on the straight and narrow. Also, I'll tell the flank guys what the deal is so they can fill the coach in on what's occurring.

Now, so not to be too Pollyana, if the kid is at all disrespectful when I address him, or blows me off in any way, he has earned a flag (and usually is asked to go visit with his coach for awhile).

This method works for me in that if I didn't flag him, I have an opportunity to teach the kid a lesson in sportsmanship, discipline, and prevent future occurences in the game.

Show me where it says that in the NFHS rules you jerkoff!
 

Derock-
Just like most the hogwash you post on this forum, there is NOWHERE IN THE NFHS RULEBOOK, COMIC BOOK, CASE BOOK, OR HANDBOOK, that allows an official to "sit" a player in the "penalty box" as you have suggested! ..."For whatever reason, for any amount of time"... You didn't read that in any NFHS publication Derock! You made it up! That means you are dishonest Derock! That makes you a liar Derock!
This is yet another example of an ignoramus pulling yet another ruling out of their butt! You are NOT a football official Derock! You have no integrity Derock! YOU ARE A JOKE!

PS: Have a nice day!

Re: Show me where it says that in the NFHS rules you jerkoff!
 

Geez, ok then, I made it up.

Prove me wrong!
 

I challange you Derock! Prove me wrong!

this is the 2nd time i heard someone say they were the linejudge in a 3 man game. do some area use a ref,linesmen and linejudge? in pa. we use a ref, ump and linesmen.

thanks

Our 3-man crew use R, linesman, and line judge. If we do 4-man, the 4th man is the Umpire.

Re: Prove me wrong!
 

I can't prove you wrong if I can't find my rule book. If you think its B.S. no problem. In "my" games that I officiate under the NFHS/Derock game sense modified rule book, I can sit a player for as long as I deem necessary, including the remainder of the game. If you disagree with my rule book, check yours. I'm sure you will find the same thing in yours.

they have a nfhs/derock book now???????????????/

In a 3 man crew with a ref,linemens and a linejudge what is the ref's responsiblities?????????????

does he do anything except signals???

Re: Re: Prove me wrong! I just did!
 

Your "game sense modified rules" are a travesty to true students of the game.
Just thinking about watching you spew your self-decided garbage rules to coaches and young children makes me want to puke!
I have proven you wrong!
I have also proven you to be an ignoramus!
And most importantly, I have proven YOU ARE NOT A FOOTBALL OFFICIAL! Rather,YOU ARE A JOKE!

I don't think Bubba Blues momma could have described you any better Derock, when she asked:
"Is ya crazy, or just plain stupid?"

the reason most youth coaches and youth players don't know the rules are because of officials like you derock. try calling the right calls and see some of the reactions on these kids and coaches faces.( I didn't know thats a rule)most coaches and fans think nfl all the time, they don't know rules so officials have to know them. I know derock you'll say its not our job to teach the teams and coaches rules, youre right there, but it helps to show them the way.

I have been stopped a few times going into the locker room to get changed a few times by parents and coaches and you should see their faces when I say, wait right here I get the rule book and show you. when their wrong, they just shake their heads and say im sorry Mr. Official. haven't you ever had a coach or parent of a team ever say to you, LAST WEEK SO AND SO MADE THIS CALL AND HE WAS WRONG? I'm willing to bet anti ref would say he was wrong because he didn't use game sense, even thought he knew it was the right call by the rules.

thanks

Re: Show me where it says that in the NFHS rules you jerkoff!
 

The first and foremost rule of officiating is to ensure that the right things are done for the improvement of the game.

There's no rules in the rulebook saying I should actually wander to the sideline and demonstrate to an eight-year-old what a hold is, and what it isn't. Yet I do, because at that level, our job as officials are to provide the kids with the foundations they need to improve, or at the very least, enjoy the game.

Very often, coaches in our spring league - and even in our fall bantam and midget (13-15, 16-18) leagues will request that if a player is getting to the point of being a bonehead, to send 'em over so they can sit out for three plays.

I don't know what they teach you, but in our part of the world, we're taught to be preventative. If, by sitting a player down for a series or two, we can prevent idiocy from happening, we do.

In the case that started this, I'd have gladly thrown an "objectionable conduct" penalty (Canadian term for unsportsmanlike, which is an additive 10-yard foul.) I'd consider a similar "benching" based on a number of circumstances - age being the big one.

Sorry Derock1986 but I'm piling on...
 

Derock1986: Officials should never dictate playing time to a coach.

If the action is not severe (players jabbering to each other or pushing each other but without much intensity) we should use preventive officiating including talking to the player and asking his coach for help. If the coach wants to remove his player from the game then we accomplished our goal of game control without using our flag.

However, if the infraction merits a foul then use your flag and control the game using the rules, not your game sense. These kinds of fouls must be penalized irregardless of the score or game situation.

Officials do not have specific authority to sit a player down unless that player commits his second unsportsmanlike conduct penalty during the game or he commits a flagrant personal foul.

Do not make up your own rules Derock1986. Your intentions are good but we all need to be on the same page.

Derock1986, please do everyone a favor and learn the rules. Otherwise, go find another avocation to occupy your free-time.

Same for you Sportswriter!
 

While I commend your intentions, I also do not agree with your methods.

Do not dictate playing time to the coach. Use the proper rules to remove a player. It is not proper for an official at any level to "sit a player down". Talk to the player and the coach and let them make that decision. Use your flag and penalize according to the rules if the situation merits.

Use the rules, eh?

Re: Same for you Sportswriter!
 

There's a trap here, of becoming nothing but a law-abiding arbiter without passion or feel for the game. We are human, and for eight to ten year olds, I think it is vital that we perform our fundamental role to support the game.

If I enforced the rules for first-time eight and nine-year old players, I'd be lucky if I didn't end the first quarter on the goal line, having called a hold or a illegal procedure on every play. Yet, according to the rule book, that's what I'm supposed to do. At that level, they have to play - parents, players, and coaches aren't there to see me enforce the rule book with anal precision.

Yes, a hold that affects a play gets called. But when all I see is a bunch of bobbing rears, and kids scratching their asses while they're supposed to be set, I can give that a break.

Otherwise, I'm making a travesty of the game.

Re: Re: Same for you Sportswriter!
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sportswriter

:There's a trap here, of becoming nothing but a law-abiding arbiter without passion or feel for the game.


I don't think that this was Mike's intention, Sportwriter. Few contend that we should call every foul and not have a passion or feel for the game.

I belive the disagreement is on how involved an official should get in "coaching" the kids. At youth level, it's a fact that the kids need coaching. However, I think we cross a fine line when we take on the responsibility of coaching. Sure, we all do some of this, but my preference is to go to the coach and explain what's going on. This helps him assume his responsibility of leadership and hopefully benefits the WHOLE TEAM, not just the one player. And the coach might learn a little bit in the process.

And, although as an R, if a youth game is lopsided and a coach is passing the ball, I will visit him between plays and encourage more conservative play. If he doesn't comply, then there might be a bit more yellow on the field.

I believe these actions support our passion for the game without being "law-abiding arbiters"!

Thanks JMN for understanding me...
 

Like I said earlier, officials should never, I repeat never tell a kid to leave the game, sit-out a play, etc. unless this is done by applying the proper rule.

The proper rules include sending an apparently injured player off for at least one play, ejecting a player for his second unsportsmanlike conduct foul, ejecting a player for a flagrant personal foul, etc.

However, we must never send a kid off the field without applying these rules. Playing time is the coach's responsibility.

I always apply preventive officiating techniques first, however, the best way to avoid trouble is to send a player out of the game by rule, not by "sitting him down"...

We had a situation with a player in a Varsity game this year that was pretty tight. He was doing a lot of trash talking, and my white hat asked me to tell the coach about the situation and that the player was close to a UC flag. I let the coach know and the coach pulled the player for a couple of plays to get him calmed down. We never, though, ever thought of "sitting the kid down". That is the coaches job and responsibility. It is our responsibility to enforce the rules. The preventive officiating came through informing the coach of a potential problem and pending violation. If the coach chooses to let him play, then the coach and player accept the consequences of the decision. We are not babysitters.

Players need to learn that there are reprocussions for what they do. Sometimes, it means that they get 15 yards and a ticket to watch from the sidelines. In Texas, they also get to watch for the next game as well. It seems harsh, but channeling the agression of the sport while still being under control is part of learning to play the game.

Sleeper,

There is no provisions in Texas for a player to be suspended for a game for getting an UC foul. This may be something that the districts where you work have put into effect, but neither the UIL or NCAA have such a provision.

What is a UIL?
 

What does UIL stand for and where do I get a copy?
On line?
Thank you

I knew not for a UC, but was told that for an ejection it was. I put in a call to the UIL after not being able to find that in the rules, and was told that it was a district by district decision, as you said. I stand corrected and we have proven, yet again, that we shouldn't believe everything we are told, even if we were told by veteran officials. A rookie has learned another valuable lesson today. Thanks for the instruction, bigwhistle!

Re: What is a UIL?
 

It's really a Texas thing, but try this link:
http://www.uil.utexas.edu/

Re: Re: Same for you Sportswriter!
 

Sportswriter,
I agree with you 110%! What you call "passion or feel for the game" is what I referred to earlier as "game sense". I was attacked by almost every official in this forum--got no respect. These guys are strickly by the rule book with very little "passion or feel for the game". You and I being youth officials understand how important it is to combine some game sense with your rule knowledge. Throwing a flag for every foul you see is poor officiating. I'm not suggesting we close our eyes, just let 'em play! Making the right calls or non calls during key moments of the game has everything to do with using "game sense" or "having a feel for the game" and this is important at all levels of officiating.

The running into the kicker call made by the R in the Steelers-Titans game was a bad call. Did the guy run into the kicker--yes, slightly. Should he have been penalized--no. The kicker flat out missed the field goal and the contact was not severe enough to draw a flag and give them another opportunity. In a critical situation like that, you don't want to make a questionable call to decide the game(won't find this in the rule book, check your game sense).

Guys not trying to open up an old can of worms, just my opinion.

Oh No, not again.
 

Derock, I think you just cut yourself when opening that can!!

Mr. Neil, where are you??

<i>I was attacked by almost every official in this forum--got no respect. These guys are strickly (it is strictly BTW) by the rule book with very little "passion or feel for the game". You and I being youth officials understand how important it is to combine some game sense with <b>your rule knowledge</b></i>

I think that's where the rest of us have a problem with you, Derock. Contrary to what you think, we have game sense <i>and</i> know the rules. You think you have game sense. I have and still officiate yutes. If a kid needs to sit, I'll tell the coach that he needs to cool down and the coach will handle it. I don't make a big production of it, just a quiet word, no sense embarrassing the kid. I enlist his teammates to help as well. I've never sent a kid off for anything other than blood or equipment and my youth games run pretty smoothly.

Re: Re: Re: Same for you Sportswriter!
 

Bologna! :( I think a majority of the officials who post here DO have a passion and feel for the game. Yes, I've met some that don't. They are the ones who officiate by the seat of their pants. They are the ones who think game-sense ALONE will save them. They are ones who think getting the money is the most important part. They are the ones who have no idea that a forum like this even exists because they haven't looked. Even if they did know it exists, they wouldn't spend the off-season posting to a forum like this because they don't want to learn. Derock, I'm not trying to be mean, but you are bordering that line. Your only saving grace as far as I'm concerned is that you are here (and during the off-season I might add).


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Derock1986
You and I being youth officials understand how important it is to combine some game sense with your rule knowledge. Throwing a flag for every foul you see is poor officiating. I'm not suggesting we close our eyes, just let 'em play!

Agreed. In comparing you two, Sportswriter has the rules knowledge. :D (ba-da-dump-bump). I also agree that officiating is also about knowing when to apply the rules and when to let things go. However, you have to KNOW the rules in order to know when NOT to apply them.

I partly agree, but I wouldn't say only during KEY MOMENTS of the game. Something I'd flag as a safety foul in the first minute should be called the same way in the last minute.

I didn't see the play so I can't comment. All I've seen is a still picture of contact. However, the fact that the field goal was missed doesn't have any bearing. The white-hat who makes that call isn't going to know if the attempt was good or not anyway. He will make the call based upon the action against the kicker. This is mechanics 101.

NFL officials are told over and over not to guess. "Be sure it is a foul" is their motto. Roughing and running into fouls are SAFETY fouls and should be flagged every time - regardless of game situation. You contend that the action wasn't "running into". The R saw the play differently and he was much closer to the action. He also has to have a number of years of experience in order to even work in the NFL, let alone white-hat. I think I will defer to the NFL referee's call on this one.



The fact that the play was a "Critical Situation" isn't a factor. NFL officials are graded on every play regardless of the game situation.

DEROCK,

Listen to yourself, you said that you wouldn't have called running into the kicker because it had no bearing on the failed kick?? are you that stupid ? Can you have running into the kicker while hes kicking the ball ? no because you'll block the kick. (most of the time)Roughing and running into the kicker Derock is called after the ball is away, just like roughing the passer. Who cares if he missed. If a passer gets roughed and the receiver drops the ball are you going to say , hell im not calling this because he dropped it.

Derock wether youre in youth ball or the NFL this was clearly running into the kicker, it doesn't matter that he did a good acting job (hell he fooled me and millions of others. You need more then game sense.

Derock,

Is it your game sense thats telling you he missed so he doesn't deserve the running into the kicker penalty? What if the kick hit the uprigth and bounced down in front of the goal post? Just because it was a clear miss you use your game sense to blow a call that should be made all the time.
Lucky most youth leagues don't try field goals or extra point kicks.

Re: Re: Re: Same for you Sportswriter!
 

Sportswriter,
I agree with you 110%! What you call "passion or feel for the game" is what I referred to earlier as "game sense". I was attacked by almost every official in this forum--got no respect. These guys are strickly by the rule book with very little "passion or feel for the game". You and I being youth officials understand how important it is to combine some game sense with your rule knowledge. Throwing a flag for every foul you see is poor officiating. I'm not suggesting we close our eyes, just let 'em play! Making the right calls or non calls during key moments of the game has everything to do with using "game sense" or "having a feel for the game" and this is important at all levels of officiating.

The running into the kicker call made by the R in the Steelers-Titans game was a bad call. Did the guy run into the kicker--yes, slightly. Should he have been penalized--no. The kicker flat out missed the field goal and the contact was not severe enough to draw a flag and give them another opportunity. In a critical situation like that, you don't want to make a questionable call to decide the game(won't find this in the rule book, check your game sense).

Guys not trying to open up an old can of worms, just my opinion. [/B][/QUOTE]
Oww let me at him

Ire Rastafari Derock, I and I tink I and I’m understand dem “game sense” you’d ben taking bout. ties data deem like data sensemilla dam rastas smoke in them co-che? Bro-da, dem puff that sensemilla and come up wit the most cool running eber . Your game sense is right down that pike Derock. All based on your seedless knowledge of the rules. Got no seed in your smoke Derock The way you call your games and spout your rap , it’s quite apparent you’ve been sucking the reef a little to liberally up behind the bleachers before you go strutting your I’m in charge”-sit your *** down game senselessness up and down the field . Derock, I know this will disappoint you but guess what young man? You aren’t out there to be in charge. None of us are. We’re there to manage the game. To try to keep it safe. To try and not let either team gain an unfair advantage. We use the rules and administer them fairly and without any bias. The majority of the games I work are middle school and youth league. I’m well aware that we need to take into account the age and level of skill. I know we must use preventive officiating. I’ve been a fan for over 40 years. I played 6 years of organized ball. I’ve coached two years of football and coached in other sports. Give us a break with your "Game senselessness “the guys have heard enough of your crap and lies. We know the game you block head. Go plant next years crop and let us do this. We really want to get it right. And not for the money or the glory Derock. We do it for the love of the game!

Re: Re: Re: Same for you Sportswriter!
 

In most 7 man mechanic's that I am familiar with the FJ and BJ rule on the kick.
I am curious in Modifiied/Maryland/DeRock/45min/PEWWEE/Bantam/HERD BALL/Game Sense league, is the correct mechanic for the white hat to give up action around the kicker and watch the flight of the ball, rule on the kick, and then and only then (based on the results of the kick) decide on whether the action around the kicker warrants a flag?
If that is the case we are doing it wrong here, because around here the White Hat stays with the kicker until the play is over.

Two more questions for you DeRock:
1) Can I get a copy of your 7-Man mechanics? How 'bout your 3-Man mechanics and responsibilities of the LJ?
2) How many 7 man mechanics games have you worked?

Thanks, KWH
 

Hey KWH,

Thank you for clarifying the modified Maryland rule book for us heathen officials.

Heck, we don't work 7 man, but I can see the benefit of the R being in charge of watching the ball instead of the kicker. Then, he won't have to make the tough calls involving judgement and can just decide on fouls based on the result of the play and his acute game sense.

In fact, let's petition the league to do away with ALL JUDGEMENT CALLS! (I bet I know who would be the first to sign the petition). That's what causes most of the controversy in the NFL, and even our boy Derock (the Dalai Lama of Officials, "DLO") maintains that we get most of the judgement calls wrong because we are too ignorant to apply any game sense (you know, we're so rule bound).

Better yet, let's toss the whole damn rule book out.

Hey, I think he's converted me!! I see the light!! Football anarchy!! Let the players and coaches do what they want, no fouls, no flags, no score, everyone leaves happy.

I would like to chat more, but I need to go burn my rule book, reset my watch for 45 minute youth games, and to point east and worship at the altar of the exalted Dalai Lama of Officials!!!! Hail to the enlightened conciusness of the DLO! :):):):):):):):):):)

I am not sure what the 3 person mechanic for NF are, but when we are doing 3 person on a short FG attempt, the U has responsibility for one upright and the crossbar. The R has the responsibility for the ball getting away cleanly and then the other upright. The L has the responsibility of protecting the kicker and holder.

BTW, I thought the call made by Blum was correct.

I don't know about you but to "fool" someone is a false sense of the truth. If you were "fooled" then what you think you saw is not what really happened. If what you think you saw didn't really happen, then how valid is that flag that was thrown?

The missed field goal is relative to the call because it gives Nedney a motive for performing his act. The R should have been looking for Nedney to try and bait him into a call--Nedney knew he missed the FG and was looking/hoping he could draw a flag and get another attempt.

Wow... you defiantly got da kind bro! Now I see why you stick with the youth league that pays you so well to play in their games. You need the "big bucks" to pay for that game sensemilla you been smoken. I hear the regular sensemilla is pretty spendy, But this game stuff must cost you a bundle. This last post of yours is yet another classic example of how strong this s#%t can get. Hey let me ask you something, do you share your game sensemilla with your crew or are you a bogart?

DeRock is not a Football Official
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Derock1986

Quote:

The missed field goal is relative to the call because it gives Nedney a motive for performing his act. The R should have been looking for Nedney to try and bait him into a call--Nedney knew he missed the FG and was looking/hoping he could draw a flag and get another attempt.

This DeRock is a phony! He is not a football official!
I suggest we just quit responding to this ignoramus and maybe he will just go away!
Kinda like yesterdays garbage!

Re: DeRock is not a Football Official
 

This DeRock is a phony! He is not a football official!
I suggest we just quit responding to this ignoramus and maybe he will just go away!
Kinda like yesterdays garbage! [/B][/QUOTE]

AGREE !

Derock, the hats job on this play is looking to make sure theres not contact with the kicker/holder. Not to be watching to see if hes acting. You really need a lot of help, if you want to be an official.

That can't be the ONLY job the hat has is to look for contact. What about to see if the defender is blocked into the kicker/holder? Do you still penalize the defense? Before you answer, CONTACT WAS MADE!!!! HSWH if you understood the purpose behind the running into the kicker rule, then MAYBE you would understand why I said this is a bad call. You never answered my other question---If you were fooled by Nedney's act, how valid is the flag? Fooled meaning what you think you saw, didn't really happen the way it appeared.

All,
The Eagles-Bucs game just had a play to further emphasize my point why the Steelers-Titans call was a bad call.

The Eagle defender ran into the Bucs kicker on a 27-yd FG but no flag was thrown. Why no flag was thrown when he RAN INTO THE KICKER??? Because safety was not an issue. The Eagle defender made direct contact with the kicker but when he made contact he grabbed the kicker in an attempt to hold him to keep him from falling. Gramatica, K, of course still tried to do his acting job but the official didn't buy it. GOOD NO CALL!!!!!

Both plays were excellent examples of when to call the foul and when NOT to call the foul. The contact in the Phi game did not put the Phi. kicker in any danger.

The contact in the P'burg-Tenn game was a different story. It DID put the kicker into danger. Grabbing a guy by the upper body and holding him up is a lot different than sliding into his legs. Legs are MUCH MORE vulnerable than the upper body.

I agree with the no call in the Eagles-Bucs game but I still don't agree that safety was an issue in the Steelers-Titans game. If the theory of running into the kicker was true in the Steelers-Titans game, it should have also been true in the Eagles-Bucs game. The emphasis on this call as stated by Blum, was their was contact made which displaced the kicker. The same is true in the Eagles-Bucs situation, contact was made which displaced the kicker however, the Eagle defender grabbed the Bucs K to prevent him from falling to the ground. Furthermore, the contact in the Eagles-Bucs game was more direct and flagrant than the slight contact made in the Steelers-Titans game.

BTW, I finally got to see a replay of the Pit-Ten play.

You and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I thought both calls were good. The first was, IMHO, a classic example of running into (although a bit enhanced by Nedney), while the second was a good case of a no-call because he didn't put the kicker at any risk.

Mike did you really find that safety was an issue in Nedney's call? I don't think safety was an issue at all and Blum never stated this. Instead Blum emphasized that contact was made which is why he called running into the kicker opposed to roughing. In the Eagles game, the defender ran into the kicker--same thing but no call.

I wouldn't keep saying it if I didn't.

In comparison to other parts of our bodies, the knee is one of the weakest joints in the body. It takes very little pressue on ANY part of the leg to ruin a knee -- just ask the Miami-Fl RB. The contact Nedney took was at the lower leg near his plant foot. Nedney was contacted in a dangerous fashion. Yes he accentuated the foul, but it was still there. Different story in the Phi-TB game. Gramatica was grabbed at the chest and HELD UP. Good no-call.


I again <s>asset</s> umm, I mean "assert" that it was the safety issue NOT THE CONTACT that was called.

As for the explanation, Mr. Blum was faced with an audience of hundreds of thousands and felt he had to quickly explain his call. He did so by citing the rulebook (as it is hard to explain WHY a rule is written). Much easier to quote the rulebook for a quick answer than to go into a long verbose explanation that the contact was called because the players' safety was at risk. An explanation about player safety would also sound contrived. Aren't the rules written with one of the goals being player saftey? There is no need to explain why the contact was illegal.

I doubt very much that we change one anothers minds so I am done discussing this issue. We see it two different ways.

[Edited by mikesears on Jan 21st, 2003 at 07:08 AM]

derock,

youre an idiot.

if youre fooled, that means the man did a good job. also derock its not the hats job to be looking at defenders being blocked into the kicker/holder. thats why theres 7 men on the field.

derock maybe you need to find a youth league forum, to better fit youre officiating.

hell derock you been fooling these kids for 7 years now , they think youre an official.