Derock,
Do you own a NFHS rule book or even seen one for that matter? All your “thinking” don’t mean squat if you have no knowledge of the contents of the “book”. Most officials have a foundation upon which they base there opinion and exercise their judgment. They’ve acquired that foundation AFTER reading the rule book for the code used in their respective states.
If what you say is true, that you’ve officiated for 7 years, it’s totally unconscionable to me that you’ve never bothered to read the rule book. If you’ve been getting paid to work as a football official, you’re doing a great disservice to the league that’s paying you, and to the kids playing those games.
Now I’m sure you’re sitting there thinking what an A$$ I am with all my negative comments toward you. Well let’s see if we can get something positive happening here. Send me your e-mail address and I’ll get some good study material to you. I’m willing to send you my 2001 NFHS rule book (what’s left of it LOL) along with the rule changes for 2002. Hell I’d even be willing to pay for a brand new set of 2002 NFHS (rules, case, simplified and illustrated, officials manual) books if you’d just read them .
Until such time let’s see if we can get you started in the right direction.
1. Describe and explain the “All But One”
2. Define a loose ball play
3. On a free-kick , when do we start the clock ?

Could I send you my e mail address as well? I'm in need of one of those Gortex long sleeved shirts. I hate my present one - it's about 5 years old. Thanks.

[Edited by ABoselli on Dec 13th, 2002 at 03:36 PM]

LOL .....Hell yes AB , but not until you give me the definition of a running play ...... 8^)

I think Derock just crawled under a rock.

Sorry I don't have much time this weekend to respond to all your posts. I will try to respond as soon as I can to your questions and comments. You see, this "idiot ref" was invited to officiate a weekend long football tournament so I'll have to school you guys later! HAHAHA!!!!

I've been officiating for 13 seasons and I still have trouble with the "All but One." Or is it "All for One", or "One for All"???? I get so confused!!!!

THe All but one is ver y simple...All people posting on this forum are worth listening to ... but one....derock...haha...i found that in the illustrated casebook....haha

Remeber the rules!!!
 

Remember Derock:
No baseball hats, no spinning, muffs are live, while fumbles cause the ball to become dead. If a flag inadvertantly falls to the ground a two handed tag between the armpits and the knees constitudes capture. Flag Gaurding is always illegal.

Source: http://www.afafootball.com

Is anyone else thinking what I am?
Derock just made up a weekend tournament.

What teams are playing in a weekend tournament now?
Derock says he doesn't do high school or college right?
The only tourny I know going on this past week was the pop warner championships in disney, so my congrats to you Derock.

Isn't everyones seasons over except you college officials and some High School officials?

I was thinking the same thing HSWH. This guy is so full of crap it’s unbelievable. He tells us he doesn’t have time to answer these questions because he got the call to work a big time football tourney. (OWWWW I’m so impressed). Yet he had plenty of time to post his dribble on another thread explaining how rules are fine “If you're taking a rules test or someone challenges you about a rule”, but what we really need is some of that good old “Super Defrock Judgment”. I mean come on… Rules? Super Defrock don’t need no stinking rules. He didn’t bother to take me up on my offer to send him a rule book.(which didn’t surprise me) What do you want to bet he does all his rules studying and polishes his “Super Defrock Judgment” in front of his TV on Sunday? Then he spends the rest of his time practising how he’s going to tell coaches ”YOU WILL RESPECT ME !” . I’ll also bet that when he gets the call to work the NFL(he’s so dam good) his uniform number will be 666 because I’m sure he’s the Anti-Ref.

Tournament???
 

HSWhiteHat,

I agree!

I've never heard of a football tournament this late in the season, like POST SEASON! Maybe Derock's confused and actually got a playoff assignment. Big D, you might want to differentiate for us commoners between tournament and playoff.

However if you did get the youth championship assignment for Disney, don't go. I heard it was kind of a "Mickey Mouse" affair. :)

Sounds like you guys are just jealous because you can't believe someone out there thinks I'm a good enough official to invite to a tournament. You knuckle heads just don't get it. No one cares if you know every rule in the rule book because officiating football is not about knowing all the rules it's about calling a fair and sensible game. In my opinion, the worst officials are text book officials because they lack game sense. Don't let the rules of the game over power using good game sense or should I say, don't get so educated and become a know it all but you have no common sense.

It doesn't matter what you think of me. I'll continue to officiate.

And by the way, I did officiate in a tournament but you wouldn't know anything about that because it was an INVITATIONAL! If I wasn't any good at officiating, then why did they ask me to officiate and then pay me $600 for my services?

Well Derock maybe you could clue us ignoramuses in on where in the heck they are having a football tournament this time of the year?

Will whole heartedly agree with something drock said....officiating is about calling a fair and sensible game and not being a know it all...i hate refs who call the backside WR for his chinstrap having one buckle undone while my tailback is scoring up th eother sideline....so i will agree with drock on this one...

was that a flag tourney...they are big this time of year...
if so 600 bucks sounds great....

here in my state flag refs get 20 bucks a game...so in a tourney i guess if you called 30 games or so.....haa

DeRock: You are a legend in your own mind! Now listen up pilgrim and listen good...
 

"Fair and sensible" is part of it derock, but it sure as hell ain't all of it!
Ever hear of an official that has a firm understanding of the rules AND has common sense?
If you haven't, you ought to flip on the TV sometime and watch a game. You can believe that 99.99% of the time all seven of thoses guys do!
You can also believe that if you continue with that pissy-a$$ attitude of yours the only TV game YOU will ever be involved with will always be the ones you watch from your recliner!
How dare you generalize all of us and then continue to put your punk-a$$ on a level above the rest of us!
It's clowns like yourself that don't bother to study and learn the rules (for the level you officiate) but rather use seat-of-the-pants rules that give the rest of us bad names.
Why? Because eventually your "fair and sensible", lackluster, make-em-up-as-you-go, rules knowledge will effect the outcome of a game. And once you do that, (and all it takes is once) YOU ARE THE PROBLEM! How many times has this already happened Derock?
You DO NOT have the authority to set aside the rule book and instead use "DEROCKS Fair and Sensible Guide to Football" (as you have conviced most of us that you actually do), Nobody does!

I don't believe you are an official at all! Not with your know-it-all attitude! If you are, and your only aspirations are to continue with Pop Warner Bantams and Pee-Wees then you are on the right track! With your attitude your only "Bowl Game" will contine to be an "Invitational" Flag Tournament that pays $20 a game!!!

I challenge you derock to tell us what association (or chapter) you belong to because:
1) You say too many stupid things for any of us to believe you actually officiate football.
2) If my assumption in #1 is incorrect, then you need a $hitload of growth as an official.

My 2 cents

PS Have a nice day.

KWH...... That was more than $.02 worth..... That was a whole mouthfull. I will have to agree with you though. You have to know the rules. But interpreting the rules is where a Zebra becomes an Official. As in the example I gave of the pass play in another thread, you have to interpret what "Impedeing" and "Interference" means.

As far as advancing in officiating goes, some of us are located off in TimbuckToo, and won't ever see the day we actually do a game any bigger than a playoff game at the 3A level. The Portland Officials Association has the OSAA so wrapped up the rest of us don't get anything but the crumbs. The Portland guys aren't any better at officiating, I've seen them blow calls. I also know the guys officiating the NCAA games aren't Gods either, they call games with a chip on their shoulder as much as anyone else....... with a lack of common sense.

I just read the article in Referee tonight about the former NFL official who works high school games in Portland. He was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and his friend arranged to have Red Cashion and a crew of other former NFL guys (including his son) + one Pac 10 guy work his last game ever with him. Quite a story - poignant and touching. It said there were 100 officials lined up as a tunnel as he entered the field to wish him well. Were you there? That must have been quite a scene to behold.

I read in this past weeks paper that he had lost his battle with cancer. There was a real nice article in the Oregonian about that game around the end of October. Probably the same article that you read.

I was working the Knappa/Warrenton game that night, so I wasn't there. KWH???????

Vern Marshall's last game...
 

Yes, I am proud to say I was there. It was without a doubt the proudest moment of my officiating career. I was assigned the Oregon City @ Rex Putnam with a 7:00 kickoff and Vern's game had a 3:00 kickoff so it worked out perfect for my crew, we stayed at Vern's game until the third quarter and then headed for our pregame.
As for Vern's game, the article in Referee Magazine was great but it doesn't hold a candle to being there. I think the only thing they could of done better would have been to replace the picture of Verns son's helping him up and out of the chair with the picture they had in The Oregonian of Vern signaling the first touchdown of the game. You see while the article said Vern only lasted for the first series (Which was true), what the article didn't tell you is the first series ended in a touchdown. Vern gave the signal for the touchdown. The extra point was good. Vern signaled touchdown (his last signal) to the press box, and then his day was done. Vern walked off the field, he needed a little help leaving, his son wrapped him in a blanket and walked him off the field to a standing ovation from 100 to 150 stripped shirt officials. Vern tipped his hat (just a little suttle tip, but enough) to acknowledge the ovation, and just like that, Vern's 50 year career was over. He stayed on the sideline shaking hands will all of us till the end of the first quarter (believe it of not cutting himself down for the lousy job he did on coverage on one of the plays) and then his son Joe walked him off the field to the locker room. 35 days later Vern died. Close to 600 people attended his funeral that at his request DID NOT have any "Stuffy Orgon Music"!
Vern was a class act from a generation of Americans that is slowly fading away. We will be designing a patch to wear on our uniforms in Vern's memory for next years season.

It is very rare when NFL officials return to high school officiating when there NFL career (Vern worked 13 NFL seasons) is over.
It is extremely rare to see 6 former NFL (and 1 former (25 year) PAC-10 official) officials work a high school game anywhere!
There were 6 Super bowls and 96 years of NFL experiance officiating football on the Lincoln High School football field that day. There were 125+ applauding officials in uniform on the sidelines that day, and not alot of dry eyes.
It was a sight that these eyes most likely will never see again...
God Bless

[Edited by KWH on Dec 17th, 2002 at 02:13 AM]

I too don’t believe you are an official. An immature 18 year old (Derock1986)liar is more like it. I bet your only experience as a referee is when you’re invited over to your buddy’s back yard to referee his little brother’s weekly rassling tournament. I bet you feel big time when the little rasslers look up at you and go ”WOW it’s De-Rock”.
You need to do a little more research before you try pounding sand up our a$$'s with your obvious lies. Why would you think we don’t understand what invitational means?
I‘m ASSINGED to work an invitational adult-flag tournament this next weekend. I’ll work 5 games Saturday, 5 Sunday. Each game is 50 minutes long with a running clock, 5 minuts halves. Each game pays 15 dollars. You do the math.
Another reason I know your lying is there’s no way that any youth leagues are playing flag-ball (or any other for that matter) this time of year, and a guy like you would be running for the parking lot at the first half working an adult league. Your shuck the rules sensibility stile of officiating would get your a$$ kicked after the first game. Now please leave us alone. Check for a fantasy football official’s message board at the fantasy football web-site. That’s where you can tell your lies and spout your crap.

Oh no, Mr Neil and KWH are angry with me because ????

If you think I'm lying about being an official, that's your problem. I don't understand why you would let the comments/opinions of an "idiot ref" bother you so much any way. Instead of starting a new post devoted to me, why not just ignore the "idiot ref" (common sense, is it not)? I don't know the rules and never post anything that makes sense--so common sense should say to you don't respond? Game sense is common sense--if you lack common sense, you also lack game sense.

Mr Neil and KWH are officials I like to refer to as text book officials or Barney Fyffe's! Barney Fyffe was a great deputy--knew every law in the book but when it came to using common sense, good ole Barney was severly lacking. Text book officials know every rule in the book but like Barney, lack common sense or game sense. There has been a few posts here that test your game sense vs your rule knowledge. Here are a few:

Tackling the pitch man on an option run.
rule book says you can't tackle a player who is not a runner or pretending to be a runner. Game sense tells me that the pitch man on an option run IS a runner. The pitchman is perhaps a greater run threat than the QB who has the ball. To me, this is no difference than waiting for the QB to hand the RB the ball. No call.

Tripping the runner.
rule book says you can trip the runner with your feet. Intentionally tripping ANYONE with your feet has to be a foul. Game sense tells me that if the intentional use of your feet to tackle was aloud, then kicking or even drop kicking would also be permissable (whatever it takes to get the runner down right, even use your tongue if you can--WRONG! Your tongue belongs in your mouth just as your feet belong on the ground). The use of your feet to tackle is a form of poor sportsmanship and has no place in football. I have NEVER seen this form of tackling practiced or allowed at ANY LEVEL!

DPI when the receiver runs into the defender.
rule book says you can't interfere or get in the way in attemt to move toward, catch, or bat a pass. Game sense tells me that the defender can't be guilty of a foul for simply "being in the way" and doing nothing. The defense has every right to defend against a pass by putting his body between the receiver and the ball. You think its DPI because the defender won't move out of the way to allow the catch??? No call.

When are you going to suck it up and realize that some of your rulings are incorrect. Then grow up and stop these childish posting.

<snip>
First of all, what is the definition of a RUNNER? Do you really know? You have to know in order to apply a rule in real situaions. Here is the definition: "A Runner is a player who is in possession of a live ball or is simulating possession of a live ball".
A pitchman is therefore NOT a runner. He does not have the ball nor is he simulating that he has the ball. At most, is is waiting for the ball to possibly come his way.

Quote:

Tripping the runner. rule book says you can trip the runner with your feet. Intentionally tripping ANYONE with your feet has to be a foul. Game sense tells me that if the intentional use of your feet to tackle was aloud, then kicking or even drop kicking would also be permissable (whatever it takes to get the runner down right, even use your tongue if you can--WRONG! Your tongue belongs in your mouth just as your feet belong on the ground). The use of your feet to tackle is a form of poor sportsmanship and has no place in football. I have NEVER seen this form of tackling practiced or allowed at ANY LEVEL!

The definition of tripping is "Tripping is the use of the lower leg or foot to obstruct an opponent, who is not the runner, below the knee".
So, by translating that to a runner, you have to imply that the tripping of a runner is allowed. if is were not, the defintion would have stated that.
Tripping is a form of tackling. So back to the definitions. What is a tackle? "Tackling is the use of hands, arms, legs or body by a defensive player in his attempt to hold a runner or to bring him to the ground".
Tripping is allowed, tackling is allowed however, it is not a blanket permit to do what you anything want to a runner. Striking at a runner with your leg or legs is NOT, I repeat NOT allowed because by definiton that would be a personal foul and considered a fighting act.

There is a huge different between tripping and kicking at a runner. If you don't recognize this, well, maybe you should just re-read some of the rules some more. Or better yet, have a sit down session with some of your more experienced officials in your organiztion. You are a member of a football officials organization right?

If you don't understand these definitions, then I and others cannot help you.
<snip>

Derock:

We are still waiting to hear where in the world (since it probably was not in the US) that you reffed a weekend football tournament last weekend???

Guys, give it up. You could sit there and explain the pythagorean theorem to a golden retriever for 8 hours straight, but in the end, it's gonna have the same amount of understanding it had when you started.

The bulb may one day light up, but our efforts don't appear to be flipping the switch. I'm glad he's just in yutes.

They are fairly simple questions Derock...
 

Please answer the following questions to the best of your ability Derock!

1)What state are you located in?
2)What association (or chapter) do you belong to?
3)Where in the world did you work your $600 invitational tournament?

Please pick it up a little DeRock, you are holding us all in suspense...

Fellas why don't we just end the attacks on Derock posts.

You know where I stand on certain issues and no one here can convince me I am wrong because most of you want to act like you never heard or understand the term "game sense".

If I'm wrong, i'm wrong but I would like to hear everyone's opinion on the use of "game sense" and how it applies to officiating.

In the youth league I officiate, you had better bring your game sense along with your rule book or you will be throwing flags on every play. Game sense is a must when dealing with youths. Because of the variations of skill levels, you can't call a youth game the same way you call a high school game (game sense). I refer to game sense a lot because you need it in the games I officiate. I'm not saying throw away the rule book, I'm simply saying know the rule book but take a practical approach to the game. No harm, no foul; let 'em play; be consistent; what effect does the action have on the game. An official has to be able to perceive a happening, diagnose it, anticipate its effect, apply the abilities of the players to execute correctly and then decide whether or not it gained an unfair advantage for a team. The rule book doesn't tell you this because this is called "game sense". It is acquired through experience. I have officiated over 500 YOUTH football games and played in (high school) at least 40 games. Please do not take this as bragging or I think I'm better than everyone else--I'm just trying to relay the level of my experience. Because of my experience (youth), my game sense is sharper than my rule knowledge. Now this doesn't mean I don't know the rules. Do I have a rule book? Yes. Do I know all the rules? No. Do I study my rule book? Yes. Do I take the rule book to the games with me? No--I take my GAME SENSE! A combination of knowledge of the rules, an understanding of the game, and how to apply them in game situations--game sense.

Also, why does the details of the tournament I officiated in this past weekend matters? If you don't believe me, giving you more details probably won't make it more believable. I'll simply say this, youth games pay less but you can work more. I worked 20 games this past weekend at $30 per game. Each game lasted a little over an hour. I am in an association with over 100 officials. Only 6 of us were invited. Why was I invited over the others? maybe the luck of the draw--maybe someone likes my style of officiating. Who knows. But I don't feel it necessary to provide you with any further details.

Derock, there is something that a great official has that is even more important than "game sense", it is INTEGRITY. As you can hopefully tell, yours is in serious question right now. And it does not matter if you have 600 games worth of game sense...if you do not have integrity...you have NOTHING!!!!

Nobody here believes you worked 20 football games last weekend, so prove us wrong.

Common sense is like luck. It occurs when preparation and opportunity meet. If you don't know the rules, then you are going off of "gut", and I promise that there are multiple places in the rulebook that gut will let you down.

I don't give a rat's left testicle if you worked 40 games this weekend at $100 a game, and I certainly don't care how many you played in. The biggest problem I had with officiating was dumping all of the garbage that my coaches had taught me while I played. As far as calling 500 youth games, spare me. Tell me you are calling college ball, or a bowl game, or in the pro's and I will be impressed.

As far as being "invited" to call league games, that makes you a good butt kisser, not a good official. It probably also means that you don't call many penalties and put up with BS from the coaches.

I called 125 games this year in varsity, subvarsity and youth. That doesn't make me a good official. What makes me an IMPROVING official is that I understand I have a great deal to learn, I am following an off season program to get in better shape, I am still reading the rule book, participating in forums and looking constantly for ways to improve my mechanics.

There are officials on this board who have been calling for a long time and are still learning. Your arrogance shows both your ignorance and lack of maturity. If you want to discuss and learn, that's fine, but save the bravado for someone who is impressed.

Since I am fairly new here I don't want to step on anyone's toes. I came here to get opinions on different calls and so I can learn more about officiating while I am not on the field. One thing I want to be as an official is professional. Alot of the comments I am reading are not professional and are more child like. I hope I made a good decision to join this board. I thought it looked like one that I could learn from but I will not waste my time reading posts like this anymore.

My $.02
 

Derock has a point!

If you go into a game and call every foul you see, you're not using very good judgement, because you will be "Running" the game, and be there til midnight. We all know that, and that has been stated many times right here.

Having said that, in defense of Derock, you also HAVE to know the rules. You have to know what you're looking for!! I can't believe Derock said that he didn't know the rules! Are there states out there, that pay more than Oregon, that don't require officials to pass the NFHS test each year?!?! You have to read the book to pass that test! I read it over every year, and still have trouble getting any better than 85%!!! And I don't consider myself to be a dummy!

Shocker, this is an excellent board if you want to learn. The officials on here have taken a great deal of time to answer my questions throughout the year and have made me a better official.

Part of the discussion occuring in this thread has to do with fundamentally understanding what an official needs to do to get better.

One of the undercurrents in the thread is the frustration with officials who don't treat it as a profession and take it seriously. We all work with them and it makes games difficult and frustrating. Derock's attitude toward relying on gut rather than knowledge is one of the biggest issues I have encountered, regardless of years or games.

This board allows for discussions to take their natural course. It also allows for people to espouse and defend their positions. It also allows for disagreement. Conflict, sometimes, is the best generator of education and learning because it forces us to defend what we believe.

Ask questions, read the answers, take what you can use and throw the rest away. As you participate more, you will learn the members that have good answers and those who don't. Welcome to the board!

And...
 

Derock,

I won't criticize you anymore, but thought that I would offer a few thoughts.

You need to know the rules (which is really ongoing study and review of game situations for most of us) AND use common sense AND be teachable/open to learning. It's kind of a three legged stool which needs all three of these to be sturdy. YOU CAN'T JUST ARBITRARILY CHOOSE ONE AND EXPECT TO BE A SOLID OFFICIAL. It's the balance of all three that make good officials GOOD. I've been on the field with 30 year officials that admit to learning every game! I respect them!

Derock, I think you're just having a little fun with us. OK, but if you are an official, please pay some attention to what's said. All these guys can't be wrong! And most of us have a passion for officiating and are really frustrated if you're out there doing half of what you suggest.

Sure, we all have our styles and are at different levels of learning our craft. But, the fundamentals of Rule Knowledge, Common Sense, and Knowing That We All Have More to Learn is, I believe the basis for becoming and remaining a professional. And if you are as you represent yourself to be, I bet anyone on this board would offer to work with you to become a better official. Heck, maybe we can start a new 12 Step program for needy officials.

p.s. derock, at least let us know what state you're in and maybe the association you belong to. I also would like to know who has tournaments this time of year. Otherwise we'll know that you're just a fraud yanking on our chain!

Re: My $.02
 

Oz, I said I don't know "all" the rules. Please don't underestimate my knowledge because I don't know "all" the rules. I can assure you I know enough rules to officiate any youth or high school game.

Derock:
It does not sound like you know enough to officiate "any" HS game....for sure you do not know enough to officiate down here. Maybe you do in Maryland, but "your dog ain't gonna hunt" down here.

Still have not been able to remember where you were this past weekend???

Derock,

Invitational tournament means the teams are invited not the officials.

Damn you're a dummy

$600.00 in one weekend doing midget ball HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA


Derock, youre nose is growing

Kids name is shockwer and hes crying about people being professional?

Derock,
You say you have over 100 members in your association but only 6 got invited to this past weekend tournament to work 20 games each?

Well Derock that doesn't say a great deal for your association. Im an assignor and I have over 150 Officials working games for me. I would never give an official 20 games over a weekend. Reasons why are simple.

Derock, I shouldn't even have to explain them.10 games on Saturday and 10 games on Sunday, or whatever amount you called. You say you work 3 men crews right? I would think you'd get pretty tired after the first couple games or are you and youre crew supermen?

Derock, get real will you, at least make up better lies.

HSWH - your assumption is wrong !!! I can tell you who I am with and I guarantee I am no where close to that guy.

HSWH - one more thing. Your assumption and the posting of it when I have not attacked anyone is what I mean by unprofessional. I hope I never work with you if that's the type of person you are.

I am not tying to be insulting so please take no offense at my comments here:

I speak for myself (and probably many others), but I am happy with my own schedule at this point in my career, and the fact that an official is INVITED to work a youth tournament is simply not anything to be jealous over. Around my area of the country, they have a difficult enough time finding 3 officials to simply work youth TOURNEY games and, many times, even brand new officials are officiating these games. But, I say "congrats" to you if you speak the truth and if that is a major accomplishment in your career or truly something to be proud about.

Onto the subject at hand:

Game sense means knowing when to apply the rules (a.k.a. Advantage/Disadvantage). Good officials ALL do this. For example:

A player is using open hand blocking technique but his hands are actually closed. He is showing good footwork and good technique in screening his man and the defender isn't working hard to get to the ball carrier. I reward good technique and this won't draw a flag. However, if the defender tries to shuck his blocker and blocker stretches his jersey because he is holding AND if it has a material effect on the play, it will draw my flag. This is GAME SENSE.

The common one is not throwing the flag on the left split-end when the play went to the other side of the field.

Game sense is not ARBRITRARILY changing the definitions because it seems to make more sense to us. It is not flagging something that is LEGAL.




Two items:

You state, "you cannot trip the runner" and this is in direct contradiction to the rule:
Direct from the book:
Rule 2-44: Tripping is the user of the lower leg or foot to obstruct an opponent, who is not a runner, below the knee. (emphasis mine).

Rule 9-3-7: A player shall not trip an opponent who is not a runner (again, emphasis mine).

The rule specifically addresses who may NOT be tripped so, by default, we know who a player is allowed to trip.

You state that allowing anyone to trip the runner may lead to more severe actions, such as kicking at the runner. There are rules in place to deal with KICKING The runner Rule 9-4-2L: No player shall strike and opponent with his fist, locked hands, forearm or elbow, nor kick or knee him. -- Personal Foul and ejection if flagrant.

And then there are the discussions on tackling the pitchman. (I thought you had changed your position on this).

Your orignal position about allowing the pitchman to be tackled cannot be supported by the rules within the confines of the definitions. Changing the definitions is not "GAME SENSE". Tackling the pitchman is not "game sense". It is contrary to the rules. GAME SENSE is saying, "the pitchman was out of the play and tackling him had no affect on the play, therefore no disadvantage and I won't flag the FOUL". But to try to alter the definition of a runner?

I doubt my post changes your mind, but I offer this in hopes that it does.

Covered ground, immaterial to young derock.

I worked a state championship youth game as a second year official. I'd like to say it was because I was good, but every second year guy has limitations that are trumped by availability and willingness to work.

Of course, that game lasted about as long as 2.5 derock games.

I worked a Jr High Championship game my first year and thought I knew it all. I've since realized how limited my knowledge really was and how limited is still is. Mr Derek is taking a beating here.

You are so right AB; we’re wasting our time with young Derock. His unwillingness to answer any pertinent question we’ve asked is very telling indeed. This whole thread started with an offer of help to Derock. I was serious in my offer and it still stands. But did you guys see that it wasn’t until two days after my posting that Derock told us about his invite? And despite the fact that he says he has a rule book he couldn’t answer the simple basic questions I asked of him? Then he has the gall to lecture me about shunning the rules and officiate according to his game sense, (which makes no sense to me). Obtaining game sense comes with seeing snaps and experience. But knowing the rules as they’re written is a must if you want to know when and how to apply them. Derock is right and I take it as a complement when he says I’m a text book official. I’m certainly no rules expert but I want to be. I know this is an ongoing process and I’ll be learning as long as I can keep doing this.
As I stated in a previous post I too have worked local and regional youth championship games as a second year official. As much as I’d like to think it was because of my skill as an official. I know this is just not the case, especially after reviewing game films. As you say AB, availability and willingness to work plus preparation were the reasons I was assigned. Now as far as using these on-line forums for learning game sence, I don’t think is possible. This only comes on the field. But for help in learning the rules these boards have been indispensable. That’s why I try to just stick to the “Book” as written when posting my answers. This could be the reason Derock has irritated me to the point of being somewhat less professional then I’ll like to be in some of my posts
His personal stile of officiating (I still don’t believe he does) and his insistence on modifying the rules to suit his fancy is contrary to every thing I’ve learned the three years.
So I’ll leave Derock to his fantasies and ignore his posts (unless I’m in the mood for a good laugh). Now it’s back to keeping the proper decorum and reading the “Book in my pursuit to being an “expert of the rules”! 8^).

Easy Shockey,

If you get this upset over a post that you have to post two comments about it, then I wouldn't want to work a game with you either. I'd hate to see you if a coach made a comment about you.

HSWH - Not sure where you are coming from but neither of my posts had anything bad to say. Just clearing up that I do not know Derock nor am I defending any of his comments. I am here to learn from other football officials by sharing information. If my generic post about being professional bothers you, then I am sorry. I think that is one of the biggest attributes an official should portray. If you cannot be professional off the field, how are you going to be professional on the field. Especially on this board with your peers. Respect must be earned, it's a privilege not a right.

Mr. Shocker,

I can see youre a person who can say what he wants but can't take it coming back. So maybe you might just want to find a new field of work. As far as being a professional goes I must be doing something right ,because I have never received a bad rating in all my years of officiating. Maybe you should get down of that high horse your riding. You came in here bashing officials for not being professional, do you even know the meaning of that word? Maybe you should know whats going on before you make your comments next time. Im sure you get told this all the time.

HSWH... Talk about a HIGH HORSE!!!!

You've got such a big head, how did you get through the door into this site? And who is it that's bashing officials????

Maybe you should look in the mirror. You sound like one of those officials who is so important that you're going to make sure the teams on the field know you're the one running the game! You're going to decide, with your flags, who will win the game. I'd rather officiate with someone a little more humble... like shocker or maybe even Derock!

<i>I have never received a bad rating in all my years of officiating</i>

I sure have - but we're not allowed to know who gave you what, just the league they're from. We're rated on a 1 - 5 system, 1 being the best. It's not unusual to hear a (unhappy) coach scream, "You're all getting 5's!!!".

I have found that if you are inside, your chances for a bad rating diminish considerably. A lot of Sectional final crews are 4 umpires and a referee. Deserved or not, the wings and BJ (Mr. Pass Interference) take the brunt of the coaches ire.

HSWH - I can take anything thrown my way. Not sure what you say I have not been able to take. I do know that you made a comment towards me that I am some buddy with Derock. Don't know him at all and all I said was that you made an incorrect assumption. You got all worked up from that. If you want to get worked up because someone tells you that you were wrong, hey so be it. I am not worked up nor will I be from anything you have to say towards me.

As far as calling officials unprofessional, I didn't name any names. I do believe there were some unprofessional posts but it's not my place to name names. I am allowed an opinion and I gave it without naming anyone. You can bash me all I want, doesn't bother me. Just let's people see who you are. Go back and read all my posts because you must have taken something personal and I have no idea what it was unless you feel your posts were unprofessional. I am not going to keep going back and forth with you. My main purpose in replying to you was to say I do not know Derock and I think I have said that.

Like I said Eariler Shocker,

you couldn't get on a field with that attitude

OZ,
show me one post in here that would make you think I run a game when I officiate? PLEASE show me

You have taken one comment of mine and blown it out of proportion. Then you keep attempting to make my reply's to you something that they are not. Anyone reading my posts can see that I was not worked up nor was I attacking you in any way. How do you feel I was attacking you? My attitide is great and I have no problem getting games. I have people calling me all the time asking if I have any dates open. This is not because I can't get along with people, I can get along with anyone.

If you can show me in any of my posts that I was rude or attacked ANYONE personally then I will offer an apology to them.

Your login name is (Highschool) white hat - I thought you were an R. My mistake.

i am

<i>...that would make you think I run a game when I officiate</i>

The R runs the game, no?

You know guys , it was a lot more fun when we were kicking Derock around . Unless we can get back to that , lets please move on 8^)

I don't understand what I said to get everybody all unglued anyway. My posts are my own views and opinions supported by my own knowledge and experience as an official. I think, as officials, we all get some kind of sickening enjoyment about being in debates or controversy.

Derock:

Have you had a chance to think about it and remember where it was that you had the weekend football tournament??? Or have you still been unable to remember where it was?

<i>My posts are my own views and opinions supported by my own knowledge and experience</i>

I think that's where our problems begin.

I don't understand what I said to get everybody all unglued anyway. My posts are my own views and opinions supported by my own knowledge and experience as an official. I think, as officials, we all get some kind of sickening enjoyment about being in debates or controversy. [/B][/QUOTE]

everything you've said and refused to say pretty much sums it up for me . you are not only expressing your own views and opinions but you're officiating using your own rules . If you do actually do any FB officiating , your nothing but a fan in stripes . This is not a good thing Derock .
And why woun't you answer the very simple and direct questions asked of you ?
"WERE WAS THIS TURNNEY ?
"WHAT'S THE NAME OF YOUR ASSOCATION"
"WHATS THE "ALL BUT ONE"?
"WHATS A LOOSE BALL PLAY ?
"WHEN DOES THE CLOCK START ON A FREE-KICK" ?
I'm sure you can remember the first two if you try real hard . And you can look up the others in your rule book .
Come on Derock , you might actually learn something here . Isn't that why we come to this forum ?

Let's get back to football officiating!
 

Hey folks,

Let's not waste so much time "one-upping" each other on who is calling who names. It's a waste of this Board.

White Hat and Shocker, why don't you guys exchange emails or better yet phone numbers and settle this thing off line. We would all sure appreciate it! Heck, I don't know how you guys work a Friday night if you can't turn a deaf ear to all of the noise! (Ha, ha)

Now, back to football officiating.

JM youre so very right.

Shocker, Im sorry


Merry Christmas

What, no apology for me???

You get your apology as soon as you get your memory back.

Ok, here goes...
"Where was the Tournament?" In the state of Maryland.

"What's the name of your association?" Suburban Football Officials Association

"What's the all but one?" Not sure--I'll look it up when I find my rule book. If I don't know what this is after 7 years, its probably something that has little, if anything, to do with officiating a game.

"What's a loose ball play?" Is this a trick question? A live ball not in possession of a player?

"When does the clock start on a free-kick?" Clock starts when R touches the ball.

How did I do? Teach me, I don't know a football from a baseball.

Seriously fellas, I am a football official--believe it or not makes no difference to me. I am very good and well respected at what I do. You don't like my style of officiating--tough cookie--take a bite and swallow anyway.

HSWH....
 

It's not so much what you said, it was the way you said it. The attitude you have expressed here is that you're better than some, and you want to make sure they know it....

I've seen many officials with that kind of attitude on the field. They're in charge, and they'll continue to throw flags on fouls that have no bearing on the play, but they'll throw them anyway, "Because it's in the rulebook". I don't like to officiate that way.

I saw a great example of restraint several years ago.... I was watching an Arena Football game on TNN. There was a flag thrown for holding by the offense. When they showed the replay, the OLman obviously had the defender by the shirt, but the WhiteHat didn't throw his flag, until the OLman actually pulled the defender down, taking him out of the play. By rule, the flag could have been thrown as soon as the WH saw the hold, but because it had not yet influenced the play, he restrained until it did. That's the kind of officiating that is reasonable, because I think, even HSWH will admit, he could throw a flag on every play.

Derock:
I wonder if Jimmy Chick taught you that you did not need a rulebook? I doubt it. If you are one of his best than the other 99 guys must really have problems!!!!

'All but one' doesn't have a lot to do with officiating? (Big exhale) How about '3 and 1', that ring any bells? Some parts of the officiating world refer to it as that.


Maryland broken down into municipalities, or do you just describe your location anywhere in Maryland as 'Maryland'?

First of all, I never said I didn't need a rule book.
Second, Jimmy Chick never taught me anything.
Third, I never said I was one of "his" best.
Finally, what are you trying to do--make me the most hated official in the forum AND in my association??

Again, TXMIKE you know my style of officiating from the posts I have made. I am good and well respected at what I do. Just because you have researched and found out who the commissioner of my association is does not change my views as expressed in this forum. My posts are my views supported from my experience and rule knowledge as a youth official. I still say a lot of you have a lot to learn about using game sense!

Furthermore, I find it very unprofessional and unnecessary for you to use individuals names in this forum. I'm not sure what your intent was to use someone's name here but I will ask you to not use it again. You never know who is reading these posts and it could unfairly cast a negative image about someone. It is apparent that I am considered the worst and most unliked official here and find it unnecessary for you to link someone's name to mine. He's not here so stick to the member's who post on this forum. If I wanted you to know my name and the names of the people I work with, I would have told you that already.

Sure seems like you implied you are one of "his" best, whomever "his" is.

The only thing a ref has that should be unwavering is his honesty/integrity. A guy can be lacking in rules knowledge (as you clearly are). A guy can be lacking in physical prowress (which you must not be since you were able to do 20 games in one weekend). A guy can be lacking in decision-making skills (the jury is still out on you). But a guy cannot be dishonest.

Don't confuse legitimate criticism for "hatred." I know I don't hate you and I doubt anyone else here does. And as for your own association, if they don't know you by now there is very little they are going to learn about you here.

[Edited by TXMike on Dec 21st, 2002 at 09:37 AM]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TXMike
[B]I can't control your perceptions or misperceptions of me or my posts. What I "implied" was I was unsure why I was invited--luck of the draw or maybe someone likes my style of officiating--who knows?

Most officials here tend to believe I'm severly lacking in rule knowledge and don't even believe I'm an official. If I were a young official, that would probably bother me and make me very insecure about officiating. Because I have over 7 years of experience doing this, you could be an NFL official or even the President of the United States--your criticism of me WILL NOT alter how I call my games!!!

I'm willing to say you may be an official, if "being an official" means nothing more than:
1. You have a uniform
2. You belong to an association
3. You get paid (or volunteer) to serve as an on-field official

But I think "being an official" should be more than that. That is why I still do not believe you are "an official" under my defintion.


You clearly are young since you think that 7 years of doing something makes you an expert and not needing advice from anyone else. There are likely guys on here who have officiated longer than you have been alive and who have officiated at levels far "higher" than youth league and flag football.

Maybe Santa will bring you a little humility this year.

Aboselli, could you please just explain what the All but one is? I already said I don't know what it is. Are you trying to further insult me by breaking it down to the most basic terms in hopes that I would have a clue? Teach me but remember, I believe I am a more senior official than you so surely there is something I can teach you as well.

How about '3 and 1', that ring any bells?

Apparently not.

TXMike, when did I say I was "an expert"? I'm sorry but I didn't know we had ANY experts here. If you are the forum expert, then I apologize--I didn't know you were the expert. I just said I am experienced at what I do--you concluded from my posts that I am "an expert?" Since you think I'm young then you must be far superior to me. How did you become an expert and what do I need to do to reach your level? Could you please "wow" me with your credentials. I'll bet you have a whistle made of solid gold and a flag with diamonds sewn into it.

Because I have over 7 years of experience doing this, you could be an NFL official or even the President of the United States--your criticism of me WILL NOT alter how I call my games!!! [/B][/QUOTE]

Let's see....you are someone who is not willing to accept criticism, even from a NFL official. Sounds to me like you think you are an expert.

The 'all but one' principle in penalty enforecement is this - There are four fouls that can occur during a play, a foul by the defense behind the basic spot, a foul by the defense beyond the basic spot, a foul by the offense beyond the basic spot and.....a foul by the offense behind the basic spot. All fouls but this one (the foul by the offense behind the basic spot) are enforced from the basic spot. That one, however, is enforced from the spot of the foul. If its a loose ball play (e.g. a forward pass), the basic spot is the previous spot. If its a running play, the basic spot is the end of the run (where the runner is downed or loses possession). If A fouls behind the basic spot on a running play, the offense is given the advantage of all yardage gained without the aid of the foul. Therefore, the foul is measured from the spot of such foul. On a loose ball play, a hold (or any other foul by A) behind the basic spot (the previous spot) is enforced from the spot of said foul.

There you have it. Maybe you already knew this but didn't know the term 'all but one'. Knowing it makes all the difference in enforcing penalties correctly. Knowing definitions (what's a loose ball play vs. what's not) coupled with the all but one will ensure correct rulings regardless of the situation - you can always break down a play piece by piece and get the right ruling.

[Edited by ABoselli on Dec 21st, 2002 at 12:41 PM]

I have just one question for you Aboselli--Are you typing this stuff from memory or do you have the rule book sitting next to your computer? Wow! I doubt if I'll ever be able to quote the rule book that way without having it readily available to read from it. Anyway, I was already familiar with the rules on penalty enforcement just wasn't familiar with the term "all but one". Thanks for explaining the all but one.

In the back of the book, after rule 10, there are two or three pages, with diagrams, explaining the all-but-one. Its amazing to me that in seven years of officiating, you never stumbled across it. Its also right before fundamentals - a section that is vital.

I don't set out to memorize it, but if you study it one page or section at a time over a long period of time, you can quote it after a while. I haven't taken a dump at work without either the rule book or case book in five or six years. (That's probably in the TMI area).

AB, that is the first reasonable explaination of the All But One that I have ever heard. I've been officiating for 13 years, and have yet to hear it explained that way. Good job. It's interesting, I know all those principles, and how the penalties are enforced, but the way you explained it makes more sense.

Of course, I also have no desire to wear a white hat, so usually, when that section is covered during our yearly meetings, I tend to zone out! I'd rather run down the sidelines and talk to the coaches and chain crew, or stand between the linebackers. I leave the white hat duties to the guys who are too fat to run down the sidelines anymore!!!! I know my day is comming, but I'm going to avoid it for as long as possible.

I resemble that remark
 

Easy their OZ!!!
If you are not interested in or willing to learn and work the "R" position I guess that is your business, but lets try not to generalize every person who works the position with degrading statements like that one.
I'm not sure which association (Rogue Valley or Astoria) you are in but I can assure you not every "R" out there resembles that remark!!!

Thanks. I aspire to wear the white hat. I got my first varsity R gig this past season and hope for more next year. I only screwed up one enforcement but I convinced the offended coach I was right(I enforced a 5 yard facemask against the QB on a completed pass from the end of the run - 2 yards past the previous spot- instead of the previous spot - stupid stupid stupid). I have applied to college as a LJ for next year (you don't just walk up and say ,"I'd like to run the show!") but I really try to have the enforcement stuff down for high school refereeing. Nothing kills credibility for an entire crew more than a referee who screws up the basic stuff.

Lighten up, KWH!!!
 

I can't believe you guys can't take a little ribbing..... Do you take yourself too seriously???

I realize there are lots of whitehats that don't fit my description, though I've worked with a few that do. I should also have added "crippled" to that comment about whitehats...... Honestly though, there are times when guys who have suffered an injury during the game or season, are moved to the Referee possition to protect them. I've seen that happen.

I don't have the confidence in my knowledge of the rules, or the enforcement of penalties, to wear the whitehat. I don't want to screw up a game. I'd prefer to help the whitehat call a good game.

I enjoy the sidelines, although I don't keep up with the 16-year-olds as well as I used to. The best possition, in my opinion, is the Umpire. That's were most of the action happens. As a more experienced official, I find that I work the inside much differently than I did when I first started. Counting players is much easier, and I've finally learned how to keep track of eligible receivers.

[Edited by The Ref of OZ!!! on Dec 22nd, 2002 at 11:10 AM]

Hey Oz,
If you don't have confidence in your knowledge of the rules, how can you officiate any game at any position? I didn't realize that the white hat is the only one who needs to know the rules!! If that is the case how does the other 3 or 4 guys in the black hats know what to do? Or do you just throw flags and blow your whistle and let the R figure it out? Every one on the field should be a rules expert and know the proper enforcement of penalties. You can't rely on one person to be perfect while the rest of the crew just tags along. Referee is just one of the ositions we work. It is should not be the superior position. Each of us has a distinct responsibility on the field based on where we are working that game. You can't expect your deficiency on some area of your responsibilities, whether it be rules or positioning, will be covered by one of your crew mates. They have enough to worry about.

Ok, here goes...
"Where was the Tournament?" In the state of Maryland.

"What's the name of your association?" Suburban Football Officials Association

"What's the all but one?" Not sure--I'll look it up when I find my rule book. If I don't know what this is after 7 years, its probably something that has little, if anything, to do with officiating a game.

"What's a loose ball play?" Is this a trick question? A live ball not in possession of a player?

"When does the clock start on a free-kick?" Clock starts when R touches the ball.

How did I do? Teach me, I don't know a football from a baseball.

Seriously fellas, I am a football official--believe it or not makes no difference to me. I am very good and well respected at what I do. You don't like my style of officiating--tough cookie--take a bite and swallow anyway. [/B][/QUOTE]


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~

Derock; first you have to have a rule book. You might look into getting one. Very interesting reading indeed As far as the “all but one”, it doesn’t surprise me that you’d think it’d be “something that has little, if anything, to do with officiating a game”. Well it just so happens to be the most important principal that all football officials use to enforce penalties. Any official who takes pride in his work and wants to get it right out there better know the “all but one”. And not just the White Hat. I feel all officials regardless of their position should have an understanding of how this works. This way we increases the odds of getting it right should a mistake occur in the White Hat’s deliberations. . I’m not sure what kind of formula you’d come up with to enforce penalties but I’m sure it’s reflective of the seat-of-the-pants, I’m-in-charge, change-the-rules stile of officiating you say you do.

BTW you failed in your attempt answers to these questions correctly .

I suppose I should have stated that differently...... I don't have enough confidence in my knowledge of the rules regarding penalty enforcement. I believe I know the rules, otherwise I would be struggling to get better than a 75% on the test, and I haven't had that problem for many years. I also don't have an interest in trying to learn the signals.

Why worry about working the whitehat???? We have several fellows who want to work that position, who get bent out of shape if someone junior to them gets an assignment they think they should get. We had one fellow last year who let it be known he was quitting just simply because of that. And we can't get enough guys to cover the schools now. So I stay out of the way. I like the other positions, cover them well, and assist the guys who want to white hat... You know the kind of guys.... they've always got to be in charge!!! Some even tend to look down on those who chose not to work that position, and I've obviously run into a few of you here on this forum......

I'll also say that some of the guys who prefer the white hat, are the ones who can't handle the umpire position, who're afraid to get knocked down or around upon occation. I was knocked down twice this past season, and only worked the inside 3 games. You get a little dirty, but that's part of the game. If you're afraid of a little physical contact, you shouldn't be out on the field... Stay in the stands!!!! You can wear your white hat up there and be in the company of all the other guys who know the rules better than we do!

[Edited by The Ref of OZ!!! on Dec 22nd, 2002 at 04:06 PM]

I like it because if I'm going to hear a bunch of crap, I'm in a position to address the problem if there is one. I can also keep the game at a good pace. I welcome input if I mess something up and rely on my umpire and LJ a ton. If something goes really wrong, I don't have anyone to blame but myself.

I am not sure of the qualifications to be an NCAA official but my opinion is that you should have experience at every position in High School officiating. In a way you would be "well rounded". Since I am just in my starting out years, the white hat position is a little overwhelming at this point. Though everyone should know the rules, the white hat should know them better than everyone else. Since they are the ones doing all the explanations, they basically represent the rest of the squad. Just my opinion on why some may not want the position. I personally want the opportunity but I don't want it until I am 100% ready.

I've worked everywhere except umpire - my assignor never put me there. I guess I don't have the look of an umpire (6'2" - 210) and he wants guys who can run on the wings and BJ. Fine - my umpire dreams dashed, I find consolation in the white hat. My recurring nightmare is getting a question from a coach that I can't answer - keeps me studying.

AB,

You sound like the perfect size for an umpire. All the best ones are the size of linemen. Don't give up.

REF oz

Please tell me where I made it seem to everyone that im better?

Please just show me once

Oz,

Putting down Referee's????

and youre a 13 year official?
I heard it all now.

Just simply go back and read the way you've replied to me and Derock. You've taken yourself too seriously. I believe Derock is just simply trying to yank our chains..... Don't yank back.

If I've missjudged you, I am sorry. I didn't come onto this forum to upset anyone... Just to communicate with other officials. I enjoy they game, and on the field as an official is the best way to participate when you're 47!

White Hats...
 

Guys,

In your associations, how are white hats moved from Youth to High School to Varsity?

Our association generally starts good officials off at Ref on Youth games with some veteran guys. Guys are chosen based on their skills at other positions and ratings by fellow officials, desire to Ref and availability, of course. If there are no repercussions, they begin receiving some Frosh assignments.

JV opportunities are usually provided by a Varsity Ref who says "I'm not interested in White Hatting 2 games. Would you like to take the JV game?" They work with you to get things right and help with winding/killing the clock, penalty enforecement, etc. If you do a good job, you start getting JV Ref assignments from the assignor. I sure appreciated our senior guys for providing me with this support and opportunity to learn the new position on the field. No better way.

As far as Varsity assignments, it appears to be a waiting game until the current Varsity Ref's decide to hand up their cleats.

How do the rest of you move folks into Ref assignments?

In our association, you send in your availability sheets in May and you can specify up to 5 schools you would prefer not to work and your three choices for posistion in order of preference. You will probably not get an R gig until you have a) been there a while b) proven that you're not a complete nitwit c) have done a good enough job so that the assignor can go to a vet and ask him about you and get a positive assessment.

In our chapter, there are a little over 100 'active' officials (those who have come up through the ranks three years, have passed all the tests and graded out sufficiently enough by active officials on the games they worked with them) and there are probably 15 or so consistent white hats. They'll work BJ on occassion or umpire, but they're R's for the most part. It's tought to break into their club, but if you let it be known to the assignor that you wish to R, you will be considered.

I know a lot of guys who have zero desire to referee for various reasons. That's fine. I would rather be in charge, run the game at my pace, and be in a position to respond to coach's concerns than not. If I can't R, I like LJ because you're in constant contact with every other member of the crew and really help move things along.

White hats
 

For rec games the Commissioner assigns four officials and lists them by position (assigning software requires this), at least one is a varsity qualified official. When I have these games I generally will rotate the positions among the crew for those that want to work other positions. BTW, we all wear black hats for these games. For F/JV the Commissioner assigns a four man crew. If one wants to work as WH then they can ask him to assign him as one for these games. Sometimes I will switch with one of the crew if they want to get some experience. We do F/JV combinations and send five men (four onfield and one timer). The ECO for the F game will be the WH for the JV game and vice versa. On the schedule the HL and LJ will switch from the F to the JV. The U stays the same for both games. For Varsity games, we operate under the crew concept. The Commissioner selects the crew chief (R) and he is a WH until he retires or is removed for other reasons (never has happened to my knowledge). The usual method would be for the official to make his intentions know to the Commissioner that he wants to be a crew chief. When a vancancy opens up (or a new crew needs to be formed) his request will taken into consideration. What criteria the Commissioner uses I don't know; he can take recommendations from other WHs but the final decision is up to him. We currently have 25-26 permanent 5 man crews and probably will form 2-3 more in the next 3-5 years due to new schools being built in our service area.

I assign youth and CYO ball for 6 leagues in pa.

All 1st year officials come in as linesmen, 2nd year if youre doing fine I'll assign you to the umpire position, by the 3rd year you should be ready to start being a referee.(youth level) We are an association that teaches officials. 4th year officials can move up to the high school level. We work with 3 high school assignors and they ask us who's ready to move up. You start out doing f,jv ball and will not get a high school assignment till your 3rd year. At the high school level you make a choice of what position you want to work. All our high school assignors have ex officials and theirselves scout you while youre on the field. All 3 assignors we work with have crews themselves. ( they do not work games that they assign) The way I got my break was being a fill in. I worked a game for a referee who was in an accident on his way to a game( I just got a lucky break by being at that game also). The next year I got a crew.

Let your assignor know you want to be a ref and im sure he'll do what he can.

good luck

The luxury of having many officials!!!!!

We had 15 officials this last season. We cover 5 High Schools, and 5 Middle Schools. Generally we can cover all of the games with who we have, but when all the High Schools have home games on the same night.... We have to call in the guys from another association. We've been trading games with an association in the Willamette Valley, and that's worked out well.

Some of our guys work at the local papermill, and they work a rotating shift, so they're unavailable for half the season's friday nights. But, that works out good, because when I'm working at my regular job on a Friday, I'm off during the week to work the lower level games. We fill in where ever.... I was even lucky enough to pick up a Varsity game my first season.

We start new officials at the Umpire position, with an experienced Ref to help him out. The guys who can still keep up with the 16-year-olds, work the outside. The guys who are a little older, slower, and hurting, work the inside jobs..... That was me this past season. It'd be nice to have 100 officials, but.....

It appears that getting a Varsity White Hat assignment or crew across the country is consistent. They are few and far between and thankfully earned. I wish no ill will towards my fellow Varsity WH's and will await the opportunity to earn a slot. That's probably a good problem to have; guys who are prepared and itching to fill a vacant WH position in an association.

We've had both crews and individual assignments. There are pro's and con's for both. This thread is pretty long and has your buddy's name as the title of the thread. Think I'll start another topic to discuss your guys' opinions of crews vs. assignments.

Thanks for the feedback regarding getting to the Varsity White Hat position. I've been Ref at Youth, Frosh, and JV level for 4+ years. Ready to move up when there's a spot!I certainly don't know it all, but feel confident that me and my assigned crew could provide a good game.