for Derock

[Derock1986]

Originally posted by TXMike
I'm willing to say you may be an official, if "being an official" means nothing more than:
1. You have a uniform
2. You belong to an association
3. You get paid (or volunteer) to serve as an on-field official

But I think "being an official" should be more than that. That is why I still do not believe you are "an official" under my defintion.


You clearly are young since you think that 7 years of doing something makes you an expert and not needing advice from anyone else. There are likely guys on here who have officiated longer than you have been alive and who have officiated at levels far "higher" than youth league and flag football.

Maybe Santa will bring you a little humility this year.

TXMike, when did I say I was "an expert"? I'm sorry but I didn't know we had ANY experts here. If you are the forum expert, then I apologize--I didn't know you were the expert. I just said I am experienced at what I do--you concluded from my posts that I am "an expert?" Since you think I'm young then you must be far superior to me. How did you become an expert and what do I need to do to reach your level? Could you please "wow" me with your credentials. I'll bet you have a whistle made of solid gold and a flag with diamonds sewn into it.

[TXMike]

Originally posted by Derock1986

Because I have over 7 years of experience doing this, you could be an NFL official or even the President of the United States--your criticism of me WILL NOT alter how I call my games!!! [/B][/QUOTE]

Let's see....you are someone who is not willing to accept criticism, even from a NFL official. Sounds to me like you think you are an expert.

[ABoselli]

The 'all but one' principle in penalty enforecement is this - There are four fouls that can occur during a play, a foul by the defense behind the basic spot, a foul by the defense beyond the basic spot, a foul by the offense beyond the basic spot and.....a foul by the offense behind the basic spot. All fouls but this one (the foul by the offense behind the basic spot) are enforced from the basic spot. That one, however, is enforced from the spot of the foul. If its a loose ball play (e.g. a forward pass), the basic spot is the previous spot. If its a running play, the basic spot is the end of the run (where the runner is downed or loses possession). If A fouls behind the basic spot on a running play, the offense is given the advantage of all yardage gained without the aid of the foul. Therefore, the foul is measured from the spot of such foul. On a loose ball play, a hold (or any other foul by A) behind the basic spot (the previous spot) is enforced from the spot of said foul.

There you have it. Maybe you already knew this but didn't know the term 'all but one'. Knowing it makes all the difference in enforcing penalties correctly. Knowing definitions (what's a loose ball play vs. what's not) coupled with the all but one will ensure correct rulings regardless of the situation - you can always break down a play piece by piece and get the right ruling.

[Edited by ABoselli on Dec 21st, 2002 at 12:41 PM]

[Derock1986]

Originally posted by ABoselli
The 'all but one' principle in penalty enforecement is this - There are four fouls that can occur during a play, a foul by the defense behind the basic spot, a foul by the defense beyond the basic spot, a foul by the offense beyond the basic spot and.....a foul by the offense behind the basic spot. All fouls but this one (the foul by the offense behind the basic spot) are enforced from the basic spot. That one, however, is enforced from the spot of the foul. If its a loose ball play (e.g. a forward pass), the basic spot is the previous spot. If its a running play, the basic spot is the end of the run (where the runner is downed or loses possession). If A fouls behind the basic spot on a running play, the offense is given the advantage of all yardage gained without the aid of the foul. Therefore, the foul is measured from the spot of such foul. On a loose ball play, a hold (or any other foul by A) behind the basic spot (the previous spot) is enforced from the spot of said foul.

There you have it. Maybe you already knew this but didn't know the term 'all but one'. Knowing it makes all the difference in enforcing penalties correctly. Knowing definitions (what's a loose ball play vs. what's not) coupled with the all but one will ensure correct rulings regardless of the situation - you can always break down a play piece by piece and get the right ruling.

[Edited by ABoselli on Dec 21st, 2002 at 12:41 PM]

I have just one question for you Aboselli--Are you typing this stuff from memory or do you have the rule book sitting next to your computer? Wow! I doubt if I'll ever be able to quote the rule book that way without having it readily available to read from it. Anyway, I was already familiar with the rules on penalty enforcement just wasn't familiar with the term "all but one". Thanks for explaining the all but one.

[ABoselli]

In the back of the book, after rule 10, there are two or three pages, with diagrams, explaining the all-but-one. Its amazing to me that in seven years of officiating, you never stumbled across it. Its also right before fundamentals - a section that is vital.

I don't set out to memorize it, but if you study it one page or section at a time over a long period of time, you can quote it after a while. I haven't taken a dump at work without either the rule book or case book in five or six years. (That's probably in the TMI area).

[The Ref of OZ!!!]

AB, that is the first reasonable explaination of the All But One that I have ever heard. I've been officiating for 13 years, and have yet to hear it explained that way. Good job. It's interesting, I know all those principles, and how the penalties are enforced, but the way you explained it makes more sense.

Of course, I also have no desire to wear a white hat, so usually, when that section is covered during our yearly meetings, I tend to zone out! I'd rather run down the sidelines and talk to the coaches and chain crew, or stand between the linebackers. I leave the white hat duties to the guys who are too fat to run down the sidelines anymore!!!! I know my day is comming, but I'm going to avoid it for as long as possible.

[KWH]

Originally posted by The Ref of OZ!!!
...I've been officiating for 13 years...
...Of course, I also have no desire to wear a white hat, so usually, when that section is covered during our yearly meetings, I tend to zone out...
...I leave the white hat duties to the guys who are too fat to run down the sidelines anymore!!!!

Easy their OZ!!!
If you are not interested in or willing to learn and work the "R" position I guess that is your business, but lets try not to generalize every person who works the position with degrading statements like that one.
I'm not sure which association (Rogue Valley or Astoria) you are in but I can assure you not every "R" out there resembles that remark!!!

[ABoselli]

Thanks. I aspire to wear the white hat. I got my first varsity R gig this past season and hope for more next year. I only screwed up one enforcement but I convinced the offended coach I was right(I enforced a 5 yard facemask against the QB on a completed pass from the end of the run - 2 yards past the previous spot- instead of the previous spot - stupid stupid stupid). I have applied to college as a LJ for next year (you don't just walk up and say ,"I'd like to run the show!") but I really try to have the enforcement stuff down for high school refereeing. Nothing kills credibility for an entire crew more than a referee who screws up the basic stuff.

[The Ref of OZ!!!]

I can't believe you guys can't take a little ribbing..... Do you take yourself too seriously???

I realize there are lots of whitehats that don't fit my description, though I've worked with a few that do. I should also have added "crippled" to that comment about whitehats...... Honestly though, there are times when guys who have suffered an injury during the game or season, are moved to the Referee possition to protect them. I've seen that happen.

I don't have the confidence in my knowledge of the rules, or the enforcement of penalties, to wear the whitehat. I don't want to screw up a game. I'd prefer to help the whitehat call a good game.

I enjoy the sidelines, although I don't keep up with the 16-year-olds as well as I used to. The best possition, in my opinion, is the Umpire. That's were most of the action happens. As a more experienced official, I find that I work the inside much differently than I did when I first started. Counting players is much easier, and I've finally learned how to keep track of eligible receivers.

[Edited by The Ref of OZ!!! on Dec 22nd, 2002 at 11:10 AM]

[STEVED21]

Hey Oz,
If you don't have confidence in your knowledge of the rules, how can you officiate any game at any position? I didn't realize that the white hat is the only one who needs to know the rules!! If that is the case how does the other 3 or 4 guys in the black hats know what to do? Or do you just throw flags and blow your whistle and let the R figure it out? Every one on the field should be a rules expert and know the proper enforcement of penalties. You can't rely on one person to be perfect while the rest of the crew just tags along. Referee is just one of the ositions we work. It is should not be the superior position. Each of us has a distinct responsibility on the field based on where we are working that game. You can't expect your deficiency on some area of your responsibilities, whether it be rules or positioning, will be covered by one of your crew mates. They have enough to worry about.

[James Neil]

Ok, here goes...
"Where was the Tournament?" In the state of Maryland.

"What's the name of your association?" Suburban Football Officials Association

"What's the all but one?" Not sure--I'll look it up when I find my rule book. If I don't know what this is after 7 years, its probably something that has little, if anything, to do with officiating a game.

"What's a loose ball play?" Is this a trick question? A live ball not in possession of a player?

"When does the clock start on a free-kick?" Clock starts when R touches the ball.

How did I do? Teach me, I don't know a football from a baseball.

Seriously fellas, I am a football official--believe it or not makes no difference to me. I am very good and well respected at what I do. You don't like my style of officiating--tough cookie--take a bite and swallow anyway. [/B][/QUOTE]


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~

Derock; first you have to have a rule book. You might look into getting one. Very interesting reading indeed As far as the “all but one”, it doesn’t surprise me that you’d think it’d be “something that has little, if anything, to do with officiating a game”. Well it just so happens to be the most important principal that all football officials use to enforce penalties. Any official who takes pride in his work and wants to get it right out there better know the “all but one”. And not just the White Hat. I feel all officials regardless of their position should have an understanding of how this works. This way we increases the odds of getting it right should a mistake occur in the White Hat’s deliberations. . I’m not sure what kind of formula you’d come up with to enforce penalties but I’m sure it’s reflective of the seat-of-the-pants, I’m-in-charge, change-the-rules stile of officiating you say you do.

BTW you failed in your attempt answers to these questions correctly .

[The Ref of OZ!!!]

I suppose I should have stated that differently...... I don't have enough confidence in my knowledge of the rules regarding penalty enforcement. I believe I know the rules, otherwise I would be struggling to get better than a 75% on the test, and I haven't had that problem for many years. I also don't have an interest in trying to learn the signals.

Why worry about working the whitehat???? We have several fellows who want to work that position, who get bent out of shape if someone junior to them gets an assignment they think they should get. We had one fellow last year who let it be known he was quitting just simply because of that. And we can't get enough guys to cover the schools now. So I stay out of the way. I like the other positions, cover them well, and assist the guys who want to white hat... You know the kind of guys.... they've always got to be in charge!!! Some even tend to look down on those who chose not to work that position, and I've obviously run into a few of you here on this forum......

I'll also say that some of the guys who prefer the white hat, are the ones who can't handle the umpire position, who're afraid to get knocked down or around upon occation. I was knocked down twice this past season, and only worked the inside 3 games. You get a little dirty, but that's part of the game. If you're afraid of a little physical contact, you shouldn't be out on the field... Stay in the stands!!!! You can wear your white hat up there and be in the company of all the other guys who know the rules better than we do!

[Edited by The Ref of OZ!!! on Dec 22nd, 2002 at 04:06 PM]

[ABoselli]

I like it because if I'm going to hear a bunch of crap, I'm in a position to address the problem if there is one. I can also keep the game at a good pace. I welcome input if I mess something up and rely on my umpire and LJ a ton. If something goes really wrong, I don't have anyone to blame but myself.

[shocker]

I am not sure of the qualifications to be an NCAA official but my opinion is that you should have experience at every position in High School officiating. In a way you would be "well rounded". Since I am just in my starting out years, the white hat position is a little overwhelming at this point. Though everyone should know the rules, the white hat should know them better than everyone else. Since they are the ones doing all the explanations, they basically represent the rest of the squad. Just my opinion on why some may not want the position. I personally want the opportunity but I don't want it until I am 100% ready.

[ABoselli]

I've worked everywhere except umpire - my assignor never put me there. I guess I don't have the look of an umpire (6'2" - 210) and he wants guys who can run on the wings and BJ. Fine - my umpire dreams dashed, I find consolation in the white hat. My recurring nightmare is getting a question from a coach that I can't answer - keeps me studying.