for Derock

[The Ref of OZ!!!]

Derock has a point!

If you go into a game and call every foul you see, you're not using very good judgement, because you will be "Running" the game, and be there til midnight. We all know that, and that has been stated many times right here.

Having said that, in defense of Derock, you also HAVE to know the rules. You have to know what you're looking for!! I can't believe Derock said that he didn't know the rules! Are there states out there, that pay more than Oregon, that don't require officials to pass the NFHS test each year?!?! You have to read the book to pass that test! I read it over every year, and still have trouble getting any better than 85%!!! And I don't consider myself to be a dummy!

[Sleeper]

Shocker, this is an excellent board if you want to learn. The officials on here have taken a great deal of time to answer my questions throughout the year and have made me a better official.

Part of the discussion occuring in this thread has to do with fundamentally understanding what an official needs to do to get better.

One of the undercurrents in the thread is the frustration with officials who don't treat it as a profession and take it seriously. We all work with them and it makes games difficult and frustrating. Derock's attitude toward relying on gut rather than knowledge is one of the biggest issues I have encountered, regardless of years or games.

This board allows for discussions to take their natural course. It also allows for people to espouse and defend their positions. It also allows for disagreement. Conflict, sometimes, is the best generator of education and learning because it forces us to defend what we believe.

Ask questions, read the answers, take what you can use and throw the rest away. As you participate more, you will learn the members that have good answers and those who don't. Welcome to the board!

[JMN]

Derock,

I won't criticize you anymore, but thought that I would offer a few thoughts.

You need to know the rules (which is really ongoing study and review of game situations for most of us) AND use common sense AND be teachable/open to learning. It's kind of a three legged stool which needs all three of these to be sturdy. YOU CAN'T JUST ARBITRARILY CHOOSE ONE AND EXPECT TO BE A SOLID OFFICIAL. It's the balance of all three that make good officials GOOD. I've been on the field with 30 year officials that admit to learning every game! I respect them!

Derock, I think you're just having a little fun with us. OK, but if you are an official, please pay some attention to what's said. All these guys can't be wrong! And most of us have a passion for officiating and are really frustrated if you're out there doing half of what you suggest.

Sure, we all have our styles and are at different levels of learning our craft. But, the fundamentals of Rule Knowledge, Common Sense, and Knowing That We All Have More to Learn is, I believe the basis for becoming and remaining a professional. And if you are as you represent yourself to be, I bet anyone on this board would offer to work with you to become a better official. Heck, maybe we can start a new 12 Step program for needy officials.

p.s. derock, at least let us know what state you're in and maybe the association you belong to. I also would like to know who has tournaments this time of year. Otherwise we'll know that you're just a fraud yanking on our chain!

[Derock1986]

Originally posted by The Ref of OZ!!!
Derock has a point!

I can't believe Derock said that he didn't know the rules!

Oz, I said I don't know "all" the rules. Please don't underestimate my knowledge because I don't know "all" the rules. I can assure you I know enough rules to officiate any youth or high school game.

[TXMike]

Derock:
It does not sound like you know enough to officiate "any" HS game....for sure you do not know enough to officiate down here. Maybe you do in Maryland, but "your dog ain't gonna hunt" down here.

Still have not been able to remember where you were this past weekend???

[HighSchoolWhiteHat]

Derock,

Invitational tournament means the teams are invited not the officials.

Damn you're a dummy

$600.00 in one weekend doing midget ball HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA


Derock, youre nose is growing

[HighSchoolWhiteHat]

Kids name is shockwer and hes crying about people being professional?

[HighSchoolWhiteHat]

Derock,
You say you have over 100 members in your association but only 6 got invited to this past weekend tournament to work 20 games each?

Well Derock that doesn't say a great deal for your association. Im an assignor and I have over 150 Officials working games for me. I would never give an official 20 games over a weekend. Reasons why are simple.

Derock, I shouldn't even have to explain them.10 games on Saturday and 10 games on Sunday, or whatever amount you called. You say you work 3 men crews right? I would think you'd get pretty tired after the first couple games or are you and youre crew supermen?

Derock, get real will you, at least make up better lies.

[shocker]

HSWH - your assumption is wrong !!! I can tell you who I am with and I guarantee I am no where close to that guy.

[shocker]

HSWH - one more thing. Your assumption and the posting of it when I have not attacked anyone is what I mean by unprofessional. I hope I never work with you if that's the type of person you are.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by Derock1986
Sounds like you guys are just jealous because you can't believe someone out there thinks I'm a good enough official to invite to a tournament. You knuckle heads just don't get it. No one cares if you know every rule in the rule book because officiating football is not about knowing all the rules it's about calling a fair and sensible game. In my opinion, the worst officials are text book officials because they lack game sense. Don't let the rules of the game over power using good game sense or should I say, don't get so educated and become a know it all but you have no common sense.

It doesn't matter what you think of me. I'll continue to officiate.

And by the way, I did officiate in a tournament but you wouldn't know anything about that because it was an INVITATIONAL! If I wasn't any good at officiating, then why did they ask me to officiate and then pay me $600 for my services?

I am not tying to be insulting so please take no offense at my comments here:

I speak for myself (and probably many others), but I am happy with my own schedule at this point in my career, and the fact that an official is INVITED to work a youth tournament is simply not anything to be jealous over. Around my area of the country, they have a difficult enough time finding 3 officials to simply work youth TOURNEY games and, many times, even brand new officials are officiating these games. But, I say "congrats" to you if you speak the truth and if that is a major accomplishment in your career or truly something to be proud about.

Onto the subject at hand:

Game sense means knowing when to apply the rules (a.k.a. Advantage/Disadvantage). Good officials ALL do this. For example:

A player is using open hand blocking technique but his hands are actually closed. He is showing good footwork and good technique in screening his man and the defender isn't working hard to get to the ball carrier. I reward good technique and this won't draw a flag. However, if the defender tries to shuck his blocker and blocker stretches his jersey because he is holding AND if it has a material effect on the play, it will draw my flag. This is GAME SENSE.

The common one is not throwing the flag on the left split-end when the play went to the other side of the field.

Game sense is not ARBRITRARILY changing the definitions because it seems to make more sense to us. It is not flagging something that is LEGAL.




Two items:

You state, "you cannot trip the runner" and this is in direct contradiction to the rule:
Direct from the book:
Rule 2-44: Tripping is the user of the lower leg or foot to obstruct an opponent, who is not a runner, below the knee. (emphasis mine).

Rule 9-3-7: A player shall not trip an opponent who is not a runner (again, emphasis mine).

The rule specifically addresses who may NOT be tripped so, by default, we know who a player is allowed to trip.

You state that allowing anyone to trip the runner may lead to more severe actions, such as kicking at the runner. There are rules in place to deal with KICKING The runner Rule 9-4-2L: No player shall strike and opponent with his fist, locked hands, forearm or elbow, nor kick or knee him. -- Personal Foul and ejection if flagrant.

And then there are the discussions on tackling the pitchman. (I thought you had changed your position on this).

Your orignal position about allowing the pitchman to be tackled cannot be supported by the rules within the confines of the definitions. Changing the definitions is not "GAME SENSE". Tackling the pitchman is not "game sense". It is contrary to the rules. GAME SENSE is saying, "the pitchman was out of the play and tackling him had no affect on the play, therefore no disadvantage and I won't flag the FOUL". But to try to alter the definition of a runner?

I doubt my post changes your mind, but I offer this in hopes that it does.

[ABoselli]

Covered ground, immaterial to young derock.

I worked a state championship youth game as a second year official. I'd like to say it was because I was good, but every second year guy has limitations that are trumped by availability and willingness to work.

Of course, that game lasted about as long as 2.5 derock games.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by ABoselli
Covered ground, immaterial to young derock.

I worked a state championship youth game as a second year official. I'd like to say it was because I was good, but every second year guy has limitations that are trumped by availability and willingness to work.

Of course, that game lasted about as long as 2.5 derock games.

I worked a Jr High Championship game my first year and thought I knew it all. I've since realized how limited my knowledge really was and how limited is still is. Mr Derek is taking a beating here.

[James Neil]

Originally posted by ABoselli
Covered ground, immaterial to young derock.

I worked a state championship youth game as a second year official. I'd like to say it was because I was good, but every second year guy has limitations that are trumped by availability and willingness to work.

Of course, that game lasted about as long as 2.5 derock games.

You are so right AB; we’re wasting our time with young Derock. His unwillingness to answer any pertinent question we’ve asked is very telling indeed. This whole thread started with an offer of help to Derock. I was serious in my offer and it still stands. But did you guys see that it wasn’t until two days after my posting that Derock told us about his invite? And despite the fact that he says he has a rule book he couldn’t answer the simple basic questions I asked of him? Then he has the gall to lecture me about shunning the rules and officiate according to his game sense, (which makes no sense to me). Obtaining game sense comes with seeing snaps and experience. But knowing the rules as they’re written is a must if you want to know when and how to apply them. Derock is right and I take it as a complement when he says I’m a text book official. I’m certainly no rules expert but I want to be. I know this is an ongoing process and I’ll be learning as long as I can keep doing this.
As I stated in a previous post I too have worked local and regional youth championship games as a second year official. As much as I’d like to think it was because of my skill as an official. I know this is just not the case, especially after reviewing game films. As you say AB, availability and willingness to work plus preparation were the reasons I was assigned. Now as far as using these on-line forums for learning game sence, I don’t think is possible. This only comes on the field. But for help in learning the rules these boards have been indispensable. That’s why I try to just stick to the “Book” as written when posting my answers. This could be the reason Derock has irritated me to the point of being somewhat less professional then I’ll like to be in some of my posts
His personal stile of officiating (I still don’t believe he does) and his insistence on modifying the rules to suit his fancy is contrary to every thing I’ve learned the three years.
So I’ll leave Derock to his fantasies and ignore his posts (unless I’m in the mood for a good laugh). Now it’s back to keeping the proper decorum and reading the “Book in my pursuit to being an “expert of the rules”! 8^).

[HighSchoolWhiteHat]

Easy Shockey,

If you get this upset over a post that you have to post two comments about it, then I wouldn't want to work a game with you either. I'd hate to see you if a coach made a comment about you.