for Derock

[ABoselli]

PS Have a nice day.

[The Ref of OZ!!!]

KWH...... That was more than $.02 worth..... That was a whole mouthfull. I will have to agree with you though. You have to know the rules. But interpreting the rules is where a Zebra becomes an Official. As in the example I gave of the pass play in another thread, you have to interpret what "Impedeing" and "Interference" means.

As far as advancing in officiating goes, some of us are located off in TimbuckToo, and won't ever see the day we actually do a game any bigger than a playoff game at the 3A level. The Portland Officials Association has the OSAA so wrapped up the rest of us don't get anything but the crumbs. The Portland guys aren't any better at officiating, I've seen them blow calls. I also know the guys officiating the NCAA games aren't Gods either, they call games with a chip on their shoulder as much as anyone else....... with a lack of common sense.

[ABoselli]

I just read the article in Referee tonight about the former NFL official who works high school games in Portland. He was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and his friend arranged to have Red Cashion and a crew of other former NFL guys (including his son) + one Pac 10 guy work his last game ever with him. Quite a story - poignant and touching. It said there were 100 officials lined up as a tunnel as he entered the field to wish him well. Were you there? That must have been quite a scene to behold.

[The Ref of OZ!!!]

I read in this past weeks paper that he had lost his battle with cancer. There was a real nice article in the Oregonian about that game around the end of October. Probably the same article that you read.

I was working the Knappa/Warrenton game that night, so I wasn't there. KWH???????

[KWH]

Originally posted by ABoselli
I just read the article in Referee tonight about the former NFL official who works high school games in Portland. He was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and his friend arranged to have Red Cashion and a crew of other former NFL guys (including his son) + one Pac 10 guy work his last game ever with him. Quite a story - poignant and touching. It said there were 100 officials lined up as a tunnel as he entered the field to wish him well. Were you there? That must have been quite a scene to behold.

Yes, I am proud to say I was there. It was without a doubt the proudest moment of my officiating career. I was assigned the Oregon City @ Rex Putnam with a 7:00 kickoff and Vern's game had a 3:00 kickoff so it worked out perfect for my crew, we stayed at Vern's game until the third quarter and then headed for our pregame.
As for Vern's game, the article in Referee Magazine was great but it doesn't hold a candle to being there. I think the only thing they could of done better would have been to replace the picture of Verns son's helping him up and out of the chair with the picture they had in The Oregonian of Vern signaling the first touchdown of the game. You see while the article said Vern only lasted for the first series (Which was true), what the article didn't tell you is the first series ended in a touchdown. Vern gave the signal for the touchdown. The extra point was good. Vern signaled touchdown (his last signal) to the press box, and then his day was done. Vern walked off the field, he needed a little help leaving, his son wrapped him in a blanket and walked him off the field to a standing ovation from 100 to 150 stripped shirt officials. Vern tipped his hat (just a little suttle tip, but enough) to acknowledge the ovation, and just like that, Vern's 50 year career was over. He stayed on the sideline shaking hands will all of us till the end of the first quarter (believe it of not cutting himself down for the lousy job he did on coverage on one of the plays) and then his son Joe walked him off the field to the locker room. 35 days later Vern died. Close to 600 people attended his funeral that at his request DID NOT have any "Stuffy Orgon Music"!
Vern was a class act from a generation of Americans that is slowly fading away. We will be designing a patch to wear on our uniforms in Vern's memory for next years season.

It is very rare when NFL officials return to high school officiating when there NFL career (Vern worked 13 NFL seasons) is over.
It is extremely rare to see 6 former NFL (and 1 former (25 year) PAC-10 official) officials work a high school game anywhere!
There were 6 Super bowls and 96 years of NFL experiance officiating football on the Lincoln High School football field that day. There were 125+ applauding officials in uniform on the sidelines that day, and not alot of dry eyes.
It was a sight that these eyes most likely will never see again...
God Bless

[Edited by KWH on Dec 17th, 2002 at 02:13 AM]

[James Neil]

I too don’t believe you are an official. An immature 18 year old (Derock1986)liar is more like it. I bet your only experience as a referee is when you’re invited over to your buddy’s back yard to referee his little brother’s weekly rassling tournament. I bet you feel big time when the little rasslers look up at you and go ”WOW it’s De-Rock”.
You need to do a little more research before you try pounding sand up our a$$'s with your obvious lies. Why would you think we don’t understand what invitational means?
I‘m ASSINGED to work an invitational adult-flag tournament this next weekend. I’ll work 5 games Saturday, 5 Sunday. Each game is 50 minutes long with a running clock, 5 minuts halves. Each game pays 15 dollars. You do the math.
Another reason I know your lying is there’s no way that any youth leagues are playing flag-ball (or any other for that matter) this time of year, and a guy like you would be running for the parking lot at the first half working an adult league. Your shuck the rules sensibility stile of officiating would get your a$$ kicked after the first game. Now please leave us alone. Check for a fantasy football official’s message board at the fantasy football web-site. That’s where you can tell your lies and spout your crap.

[Derock1986]

Oh no, Mr Neil and KWH are angry with me because ????

If you think I'm lying about being an official, that's your problem. I don't understand why you would let the comments/opinions of an "idiot ref" bother you so much any way. Instead of starting a new post devoted to me, why not just ignore the "idiot ref" (common sense, is it not)? I don't know the rules and never post anything that makes sense--so common sense should say to you don't respond? Game sense is common sense--if you lack common sense, you also lack game sense.

Mr Neil and KWH are officials I like to refer to as text book officials or Barney Fyffe's! Barney Fyffe was a great deputy--knew every law in the book but when it came to using common sense, good ole Barney was severly lacking. Text book officials know every rule in the book but like Barney, lack common sense or game sense. There has been a few posts here that test your game sense vs your rule knowledge. Here are a few:

Tackling the pitch man on an option run.
rule book says you can't tackle a player who is not a runner or pretending to be a runner. Game sense tells me that the pitch man on an option run IS a runner. The pitchman is perhaps a greater run threat than the QB who has the ball. To me, this is no difference than waiting for the QB to hand the RB the ball. No call.

Tripping the runner.
rule book says you can trip the runner with your feet. Intentionally tripping ANYONE with your feet has to be a foul. Game sense tells me that if the intentional use of your feet to tackle was aloud, then kicking or even drop kicking would also be permissable (whatever it takes to get the runner down right, even use your tongue if you can--WRONG! Your tongue belongs in your mouth just as your feet belong on the ground). The use of your feet to tackle is a form of poor sportsmanship and has no place in football. I have NEVER seen this form of tackling practiced or allowed at ANY LEVEL!

DPI when the receiver runs into the defender.
rule book says you can't interfere or get in the way in attemt to move toward, catch, or bat a pass. Game sense tells me that the defender can't be guilty of a foul for simply "being in the way" and doing nothing. The defense has every right to defend against a pass by putting his body between the receiver and the ball. You think its DPI because the defender won't move out of the way to allow the catch??? No call.

[Theisey]

When are you going to suck it up and realize that some of your rulings are incorrect. Then grow up and stop these childish posting.

Originally posted by Derock1986

Tackling the pitch man on an option run.
rule book says you can't tackle a player who is not a runner or pretending to be a runner. Game sense tells me that the pitch man on an option run IS a runner. The pitchman is perhaps a greater run threat than the QB who has the ball. To me, this is no difference than waiting for the QB to hand the RB the ball. No call.

First of all, what is the definition of a RUNNER? Do you really know? You have to know in order to apply a rule in real situaions. Here is the definition: "A Runner is a player who is in possession of a live ball or is simulating possession of a live ball".
A pitchman is therefore NOT a runner. He does not have the ball nor is he simulating that he has the ball. At most, is is waiting for the ball to possibly come his way.

Tripping the runner.
rule book says you can trip the runner with your feet. Intentionally tripping ANYONE with your feet has to be a foul. Game sense tells me that if the intentional use of your feet to tackle was aloud, then kicking or even drop kicking would also be permissable (whatever it takes to get the runner down right, even use your tongue if you can--WRONG! Your tongue belongs in your mouth just as your feet belong on the ground). The use of your feet to tackle is a form of poor sportsmanship and has no place in football. I have NEVER seen this form of tackling practiced or allowed at ANY LEVEL!

The definition of tripping is "Tripping is the use of the lower leg or foot to obstruct an opponent, who is not the runner, below the knee".
So, by translating that to a runner, you have to imply that the tripping of a runner is allowed. if is were not, the defintion would have stated that.
Tripping is a form of tackling. So back to the definitions. What is a tackle? "Tackling is the use of hands, arms, legs or body by a defensive player in his attempt to hold a runner or to bring him to the ground".
Tripping is allowed, tackling is allowed however, it is not a blanket permit to do what you anything want to a runner. Striking at a runner with your leg or legs is NOT, I repeat NOT allowed because by definiton that would be a personal foul and considered a fighting act.

There is a huge different between tripping and kicking at a runner. If you don't recognize this, well, maybe you should just re-read some of the rules some more. Or better yet, have a sit down session with some of your more experienced officials in your organiztion. You are a member of a football officials organization right?

If you don't understand these definitions, then I and others cannot help you.

[TXMike]

Derock:

We are still waiting to hear where in the world (since it probably was not in the US) that you reffed a weekend football tournament last weekend???

[ABoselli]

Guys, give it up. You could sit there and explain the pythagorean theorem to a golden retriever for 8 hours straight, but in the end, it's gonna have the same amount of understanding it had when you started.

The bulb may one day light up, but our efforts don't appear to be flipping the switch. I'm glad he's just in yutes.

[KWH]

Please answer the following questions to the best of your ability Derock!

1)What state are you located in?
2)What association (or chapter) do you belong to?
3)Where in the world did you work your $600 invitational tournament?

Please pick it up a little DeRock, you are holding us all in suspense...

[Derock1986]

Fellas why don't we just end the attacks on Derock posts.

You know where I stand on certain issues and no one here can convince me I am wrong because most of you want to act like you never heard or understand the term "game sense".

If I'm wrong, i'm wrong but I would like to hear everyone's opinion on the use of "game sense" and how it applies to officiating.

In the youth league I officiate, you had better bring your game sense along with your rule book or you will be throwing flags on every play. Game sense is a must when dealing with youths. Because of the variations of skill levels, you can't call a youth game the same way you call a high school game (game sense). I refer to game sense a lot because you need it in the games I officiate. I'm not saying throw away the rule book, I'm simply saying know the rule book but take a practical approach to the game. No harm, no foul; let 'em play; be consistent; what effect does the action have on the game. An official has to be able to perceive a happening, diagnose it, anticipate its effect, apply the abilities of the players to execute correctly and then decide whether or not it gained an unfair advantage for a team. The rule book doesn't tell you this because this is called "game sense". It is acquired through experience. I have officiated over 500 YOUTH football games and played in (high school) at least 40 games. Please do not take this as bragging or I think I'm better than everyone else--I'm just trying to relay the level of my experience. Because of my experience (youth), my game sense is sharper than my rule knowledge. Now this doesn't mean I don't know the rules. Do I have a rule book? Yes. Do I know all the rules? No. Do I study my rule book? Yes. Do I take the rule book to the games with me? No--I take my GAME SENSE! A combination of knowledge of the rules, an understanding of the game, and how to apply them in game situations--game sense.

Also, why does the details of the tournament I officiated in this past weekend matters? If you don't believe me, giving you more details probably won't make it more believable. I'll simply say this, youth games pay less but you can work more. I worked 20 games this past weekend at $30 per game. Each game lasted a little over an hour. I am in an association with over 100 officials. Only 6 of us were invited. Why was I invited over the others? maybe the luck of the draw--maybe someone likes my style of officiating. Who knows. But I don't feel it necessary to provide you with any further details.

[TXMike]

Derock, there is something that a great official has that is even more important than "game sense", it is INTEGRITY. As you can hopefully tell, yours is in serious question right now. And it does not matter if you have 600 games worth of game sense...if you do not have integrity...you have NOTHING!!!!

Nobody here believes you worked 20 football games last weekend, so prove us wrong.

[Sleeper]

Common sense is like luck. It occurs when preparation and opportunity meet. If you don't know the rules, then you are going off of "gut", and I promise that there are multiple places in the rulebook that gut will let you down.

I don't give a rat's left testicle if you worked 40 games this weekend at $100 a game, and I certainly don't care how many you played in. The biggest problem I had with officiating was dumping all of the garbage that my coaches had taught me while I played. As far as calling 500 youth games, spare me. Tell me you are calling college ball, or a bowl game, or in the pro's and I will be impressed.

As far as being "invited" to call league games, that makes you a good butt kisser, not a good official. It probably also means that you don't call many penalties and put up with BS from the coaches.

I called 125 games this year in varsity, subvarsity and youth. That doesn't make me a good official. What makes me an IMPROVING official is that I understand I have a great deal to learn, I am following an off season program to get in better shape, I am still reading the rule book, participating in forums and looking constantly for ways to improve my mechanics.

There are officials on this board who have been calling for a long time and are still learning. Your arrogance shows both your ignorance and lack of maturity. If you want to discuss and learn, that's fine, but save the bravado for someone who is impressed.

[shocker]

Since I am fairly new here I don't want to step on anyone's toes. I came here to get opinions on different calls and so I can learn more about officiating while I am not on the field. One thing I want to be as an official is professional. Alot of the comments I am reading are not professional and are more child like. I hope I made a good decision to join this board. I thought it looked like one that I could learn from but I will not waste my time reading posts like this anymore.