Sugar Bowl Safety

[ajmc]

What struck me as most significant about this play, was that the Referee and Wing official, immediately got together to confirm what each had seen and only then was a decision made and a non-hesitant signal given.

Apparently, both agreed that the play was still alive when the ball was fumbled. As both seemed to be in proper position to make a call (from opposite directions) their confirming each other's perspective seems like excellent and appropriate mechanics.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by ajmc

What struck me as most significant about this play, was that the Referee and Wing official, immediately got together to confirm what each had seen and only then was a decision made and a non-hesitant signal given.

Apparently, both agreed that the play was still alive when the ball was fumbled. As both seemed to be in proper position to make a call (from opposite directions) their confirming each other's perspective seems like excellent and appropriate mechanics.

I agree that the two of them getting together to discuss what they saw was excellent and looked good as officials.

My question, since I am not a football official, is what would happen if the two of them had disagreed? Since there was no whistle to stop the play, what if the Wing came in and said that he had forward progress stopped at the 2, and the Referee said, no, I've got a safety? Do you just discuss it and come to a decision? It seems like this would happen more often in football with two or more officials looking at the same play from different angles.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Andy

I agree that the two of them getting together to discuss what they saw was excellent and looked good as officials.

My question, since I am not a football official, is what would happen if the two of them had disagreed? Since there was no whistle to stop the play, what if the Wing came in and said that he had forward progress stopped at the 2, and the Referee said, no, I've got a safety? Do you just discuss it and come to a decision? It seems like this would happen more often in football with two or more officials looking at the same play from different angles.

The wing has forward progress, the Referee does not. So who cares if they disagree, the Referee cannot rule on a play they are not in position to make. I am sure the Referee gave information to the wing as to if he eventually got away. And one thing non-football officials need to understand, the whistle means little or nothing to this play. There are plays that do not have a whistle at all, somehow everyone knows the play is over.

Peace

[youngump]

[One of many board hoppers on this question]
The thing I wondered about this play is what you'd do if the defense did this on purpose [I realize that'd be awfully tough in realtime.] But hit a guy at the one and drive him into the endzone. Realize that you're in the endzone and then let go. Can the runner do anything at this point to regain his forward progress or does he now have to attempt to advance out of the endzone?
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SEXYCHIKU

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by youngump

[One of many board hoppers on this question]
The thing I wondered about this play is what you'd do if the defense did this on purpose [I realize that'd be awfully tough in realtime.] But hit a guy at the one and drive him into the endzone. Realize that you're in the endzone and then let go. Can the runner do anything at this point to regain his forward progress or does he now have to attempt to advance out of the endzone?

What would you do at anytime a defensive player lets go of a player with the ball on purpose?

Peace

[youngump]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

What would you do at anytime a defensive player lets go of a player with the ball on purpose?

Peace

Call obstruction, but then I call a different game.
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Effects of zoloft

[jchamp]

I just watched the play again on the DVR. Seeing it in full speed, and from the press box angle, it looked like he should have had progress at the 2. From the goal line angle, B1 makes the initial hit, drives him back, and falls to the ground on his back/right arm, letting go. At this time A1's left foot is on the ground, pushing forward. He takes one more step mostly towards the sideline, and is contacted by three B players almost simultaneously. He takes an additional step with his right foot before the B mass drags him to the ground and his show end's up on a giant "S".
I do feel dumber having listened to the announcer say so many times "Because there was no whistle, that was still a live play." I would totally get HD though, if I could have the option of muting just the announcers and still hearing the band/crowd noise.

[JugglingReferee]

New link:

YouTube - Forward Progress Sugar Bowl 2011

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The wing has forward progress, the Referee does not. So who cares if they disagree, the Referee cannot rule on a play they are not in position to make. I am sure the Referee gave information to the wing as to if he eventually got away. And one thing non-football officials need to understand, the whistle means little or nothing to this play. There are plays that do not have a whistle at all, somehow everyone knows the play is over.

Peace

As an R, because I do not have spotting responsibility, the only thing I would have done in this situation is ask the wing did he have progress stopped or does he have a safety since there is no indication by him of either at the end of the play. In fact it would have taken a longer conversation because I would have asked if he REALLY did not have progress stopped because it sure looked like it and a cheap safety is not something we want to award. So I think this assumption the R is somehow "sharing" information is just that, an assumption. None of us have any idea what is being said by whom and to whom.
And when I have progress stopped with a player being driven back I have a whistle and a hard one at that. If you don't, you are simply asking for a boat load of trouble. I think it's obvious from a play like this, there are times when everyone does NOT know the play is over and it's your job as the official to make sure they do know.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mike L

As an R, because I do not have spotting responsibility, the only thing I would have done in this situation is ask the wing did he have progress stopped or does he have a safety since there is no indication by him of either at the end of the play. In fact it would have taken a longer conversation because I would have asked if he REALLY did not have progress stopped because it sure looked like it and a cheap safety is not something we want to award. So I think this assumption the R is somehow "sharing" information is just that, an assumption. None of us have any idea what is being said by whom and to whom.
And when I have progress stopped with a player being driven back I have a whistle and a hard one at that. If you don't, you are simply asking for a boat load of trouble. I think it's obvious from a play like this, there are times when everyone does NOT know the play is over and it's your job as the official to make sure they do know.

Why would you need to ask? Whatever the wing ruled he does not need to necessarily tell you. It looked to me like the wing was asking for assistance on if the runner got away. Now none of us know that sitting here, we would have to talk to the officials to know for sure. But they did make eye contact and say something to each other before a signal went up.

And I did not necessarily ask you what you would do. If you feel you need to get on the whistle quickly that is you. My training as told me that can be slow and deliberate and if the play is over my whistle is not going to change that.

Peace

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Why would you need to ask? Whatever the wing ruled he does not need to necessarily tell you. It looked to me like the wing was asking for assistance on if the runner got away. Now none of us know that sitting here, we would have to talk to the officials to know for sure. But they did make eye contact and say something to each other before a signal went up.

And I did not necessarily ask you what you would do. If you feel you need to get on the whistle quickly that is you. My training as told me that can be slow and deliberate and if the play is over my whistle is not going to change that.

Peace

I'd need to ask because the wing official is giving no indication of what he has. He's wandered off the progress spot and he's not giving a safety signal well after the player is down. And if he's looking for help from me on a spot with this play, we have some serious problems.

As for the whistle, I still can't understand why, if you have progress stopped you would not blow the whistle. What does that accomplish other than open you up to a lot of problems? Problems like this play, problems like the ball suddenly coming out of there and a scramble for it, problems like the ball carrier getting hammered by a bunch of players because you have failed to do your job of indicating the play is over. Yeah, there are plays that are "over" with or without a whistle, but I can't see how you can possibly say that on a play that involves YOUR judgement whether it's over or not. It's YOUR judgement. So how are players supposed to know by YOUR judgement the play is over if you fail to indicate that? It could easily go either way as has been indicated on this play and the opinions here. It has nothing to do with whistles in the mouth or so-called quick whistles. It has everything to do with doing one of our primary jobs. There is a very lamentable trend within the officiating community of this "my whistle does not end the play, the play does" being used for not doing one of our jobs that manages the game. We ARE expected to have whistles at the end of plays. We should have whistles at the end of plays. Some plays, it cant' be done because we don't know if that runner in the middle of the pile still has the ball. But that doesn't mean on plays where we clearly must make a ruling, and can see the status of the ball, we get to be lazy and try to pass off our responsibilities.

[parepat]

Originally Posted by Mike L

I'd need to ask because the wing official is giving no indication of what he has. He's wandered off the progress spot and he's not giving a safety signal well after the player is down. And if he's looking for help from me on a spot with this play, we have some serious problems.

As for the whistle, I still can't understand why, if you have progress stopped you would not blow the whistle. What does that accomplish other than open you up to a lot of problems? Problems like this play, problems like the ball suddenly coming out of there and a scramble for it, problems like the ball carrier getting hammered by a bunch of players because you have failed to do your job of indicating the play is over. Yeah, there are plays that are "over" with or without a whistle, but I can't see how you can possibly say that on a play that involves YOUR judgement whether it's over or not. It's YOUR judgement. So how are players supposed to know by YOUR judgement the play is over if you fail to indicate that? It could easily go either way as has been indicated on this play and the opinions here. It has nothing to do with whistles in the mouth or so-called quick whistles. It has everything to do with doing one of our primary jobs. There is a very lamentable trend within the officiating community of this "my whistle does not end the play, the play does" being used for not doing one of our jobs that manages the game. We ARE expected to have whistles at the end of plays. We should have whistles at the end of plays. Some plays, it cant' be done because we don't know if that runner in the middle of the pile still has the ball. But that doesn't mean on plays where we clearly must make a ruling, and can see the status of the ball, we get to be lazy and try to pass off our responsibilities.

Awesome Post Mike!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mike L

I'd need to ask because the wing official is giving no indication of what he has. He's wandered off the progress spot and he's not giving a safety signal well after the player is down. And if he's looking for help from me on a spot with this play, we have some serious problems.

As for the whistle, I still can't understand why, if you have progress stopped you would not blow the whistle. What does that accomplish other than open you up to a lot of problems? Problems like this play, problems like the ball suddenly coming out of there and a scramble for it, problems like the ball carrier getting hammered by a bunch of players because you have failed to do your job of indicating the play is over. Yeah, there are plays that are "over" with or without a whistle, but I can't see how you can possibly say that on a play that involves YOUR judgement whether it's over or not. It's YOUR judgement. So how are players supposed to know by YOUR judgement the play is over if you fail to indicate that? It could easily go either way as has been indicated on this play and the opinions here. It has nothing to do with whistles in the mouth or so-called quick whistles. It has everything to do with doing one of our primary jobs. There is a very lamentable trend within the officiating community of this "my whistle does not end the play, the play does" being used for not doing one of our jobs that manages the game. We ARE expected to have whistles at the end of plays. We should have whistles at the end of plays. Some plays, it cant' be done because we don't know if that runner in the middle of the pile still has the ball. But that doesn't mean on plays where we clearly must make a ruling, and can see the status of the ball, we get to be lazy and try to pass off our responsibilities.

If you would stop trying to tell me what to do maybe you would understand. The whistle has nothing to do with why or what I will rule. If I do not see leather (which could have been the case here) I am not blowing the whistle at all until I find leather or rule that the player securely has the ball. I will not blow the whistle until then. I have had 2 IW in 15 years and both of them for when I tried to "stop everything" and one time a player did not have a ball secure on a fumble and the other a player was fighting for yards. The only time the whistle comes in play when players and coaches want to claim they should not be flagged for something because the whistle was blown in their opinion. And at the end of the day your claim has nothing to do with this play. If the officials had his forward progress ruled in the field of play then that is what would have happened, their whistle I am sure would not have been blown anyway where that place was ruled. And I know the whistle is not in my hand or mouth during plays. So when I blow it might vary as I have to grab it before I can put air in that little device. Also you need to look at the football fundamentals; the whistle is a tool not a deciding factor to make decisions.

Peace

[Coach Jinx]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The wing has forward progress, the Referee does not. So who cares if they disagree, the Referee cannot rule on a play they are not in position to make. I am sure the Referee gave information to the wing as to if he eventually got away. And one thing non-football officials need to understand, the whistle means little or nothing to this play. There are plays that do not have a whistle at all, somehow everyone knows the play is over.

Peace

how about when the opposite wing has forward pregress at the 2? You see the L in the place almost out to the hash saying he had forward progress at the 2. I wonder how that went in the locker room. L is sprinting in with arm up before player gets tackled in the EZ.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Coach Jinx

how about when the opposite wing has forward pregress at the 2? You see the L in the place almost out to the hash saying he had forward progress at the 2. I wonder how that went in the locker room. L is sprinting in with arm up before player gets tackled in the EZ.

The calling official was the one at the top of the screen. The ball was facing him and he would have been the best person to make the call. So what the other official was doing is really not relevant for many purposes.

Peace