Sugar Bowl Safety

[JasonTX]

Do any of you remember the Super Bowl play that Carey had? He had a play where he was "close" to shutting down but the QB was able to break free. My comments here may not apply to the play in question but just regarding forward progress in general. I look at forward progress as a person trying to climb out of a window. There is an area where you aren't in the house but you also aren't out of the house, you are on the window sill. When you are in that area you can still go back in or can go all the way out. Forward progress is similar in the way that I don't think we rule the runner down when he is moved back 6 inches, I think we wait to see if they push him back further. As long as you judge the runner to still be on the "sill" the ball is still live. For this play, each of us has to determine if that runner was on the "sill" when he escaped.

[Mike L]

I have to admit I would have had a whistle before the "breakaway" and had progress at the 2. Being driven back 4 yds is beyond enough for me to say progress is stopped. Then again, I'm not a bowl official either.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mike L

I have to admit I would have had a whistle before the "breakaway" and had progress at the 2. Being driven back 4 yds is beyond enough for me to say progress is stopped. Then again, I'm not a bowl official either.

I would have also probably ruled the play down in the field of play as well, but I doubt I would have had a whistle. But that is why it is a judgment call and has nothing to do with the officials and their stature. We all just do not have the same judgment.

Peace

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I would have also probably ruled the play down in the field of play as well, but I doubt I would have had a whistle.

Why not?

[Andy]

Judgement is judgement. There is the answer to your question.

I do not officiate football, but other sports and have learned that judgement is one thing that cannot be taught. We can teach rules and positioning on the field or court, mechanics, etc., but judgement is judgement. It's prretty safe to say that to get to the level of calling a BCS bowl game, those officials have shown good judgement in their careers.

You can't put a basis for judgement in black and white...much like the flag for the excessive celebration penalty in the Pinstripe bowl as was discussed here at some length. In the calling officials judgement, what that player did was a foul and earned a flag.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mike L

Why not?

I would not want to give a cheap safety. But the player in question tried to get away and did, so I would have doubted the decision for sure. Again, the player goes down this is not an issue.

Peace

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I would not want to give a cheap safety. But the player in question tried to get away and did, so I would have doubted the decision for sure. Again, the player goes down this is not an issue.

Peace

But you said you probably would have ruled it progress stopped. So if you would have ruled it that way, what reason is there for not sounding the whistle?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mike L

But you said you probably would have ruled it progress stopped. So if you would have ruled it that way, what reason is there for not sounding the whistle?

I would have ruled it that way based on the first look I got. That does not mean I would have blown it before the play finished. I do not know about you, but the whistle is not in my mouth at all times. And certainly in not a play like this or as the wing official. Heck there are plays my crew did not have a whistle at all in the last two years and the play someone ended. Interesting how that happens.

Peace

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I would have also probably ruled the play down in the field of play as well, but I doubt I would have had a whistle. But that is why it is a judgment call and has nothing to do with the officials and their stature. We all just do not have the same judgment.

Peace

I'm not trying to tell you what to do, I'm still trying to understand this statement. In it you state you probably would have ruled progress stopped but would not have a whistle. So how far back do you allow them to be pushed before you blow the whistle? Do they actually have to be tackled? How do you indicate you have progressed stopped and the ball is now dead to everyone there that is the judgement call you are making? Or do you ever blow the whistle because they are just supposed to figure it out and then see where you happend to be standing?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mike L

I'm not trying to tell you what to do, I'm still trying to understand this statement. In it you state you probably would have ruled progress stopped but would not have a whistle. So how far back do you allow them to be pushed before you blow the whistle? Do they actually have to be tackled? How do you indicate you have progressed stopped and the ball is now dead to everyone there that is the judgement call you are making? Or do you ever blow the whistle because they are just supposed to figure it out and then see where you happend to be standing?

Then do this, chalk it up to I do not feel the whistle is that important and your life apparently depends on if you hit the whistle or not. If I have progress stopped at a place, I mark that spot where FP is stopped in my judgment. You need a whistle to do that? So if the whistle is not blown when you like I cannot mark the spot I have judged at that place whether it is a safety or a TD, the whistle has to be blown?

Peace

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Then do this, chalk it up to I do not feel the whistle is that important and your life apparently depends on if you hit the whistle or not. If I have progress stopped at a place, I mark that spot where FP is stopped in my judgment. You need a whistle to do that? So if the whistle is not blown when you like I cannot mark the spot I have judged at that place whether it is a safety or a TD, the whistle has to be blown?

Peace

My life does not depend on a whistle, and this attempt at....what....I can't fathom other than some childish attempt to deflect the question. Or maybe you can't help being an insultive ***, I'm not sure which. But if you say you can stand there and mark a forward progress spot while the pile is getting pushed backwards and have no need to indicate the play is over is quite simply about one of the worst officiating ideas I have ever heard. You keep trying to redirect the question to just the spot which only causes me to suspect doing half your job is good enough for you.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mike L

My life does not depend on a whistle, and this attempt at....what....I can't fathom other than some childish attempt to deflect the question.

I answered your question. You just do not seem to like the answer. I have said this before and I will say this again, do what works for you. I will do what works for me.

Originally Posted by Mike L

Or maybe you can't help being an insultive ***, I'm not sure which.

Oh brother……. Did I not say in my games this year on my regular crew we had several moments when a play was ruled down and no whistle from the 5 officials anywhere on the field. Not our two the two wings, not our umpire or me that is the back judge felt compelled to blow a whistle and somehow no major discussion was had and we marked a spot. And if we talk about scoring plays I am sure it happen more or the whistle was not blown at all as well. And for the record I have worked 15 years and I am the youngest on the crew as it relates to years and even experience. I guess they are wrong too according to you and somehow we did not need to discuss the spot in great detail.

Originally Posted by Mike L

But if you say you can stand there and mark a forward progress spot while the pile is getting pushed backwards and have no need to indicate the play is over is quite simply about one of the worst officiating ideas I have ever heard. You keep trying to redirect the question to just the spot which only causes me to suspect doing half your job is good enough for you.

Do not twist my words. I did not say you never blow the whistle, I said that the spot is not going to change because of the whistle. The play is dead before the whistle is blown. The whistle is just going to stop everyone else if possible, but that does not always happen.

This is clearly on page 79 of the NF rulebook and a Fundamental under Dead Ball the first one:

"An official's whistle seldom kills the ball. It is already dead by rule."

Not sure how many ways I can answer that question for you.

And unless I am on trial for something I do not have to answer the way you like. Even then I do not have to answer as you like as the answer is clear.

Peace

[ajmc]

What struck me as most significant about this play, was that the Referee and Wing official, immediately got together to confirm what each had seen and only then was a decision made and a non-hesitant signal given.

Apparently, both agreed that the play was still alive when the ball was fumbled. As both seemed to be in proper position to make a call (from opposite directions) their confirming each other's perspective seems like excellent and appropriate mechanics.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by ajmc

What struck me as most significant about this play, was that the Referee and Wing official, immediately got together to confirm what each had seen and only then was a decision made and a non-hesitant signal given.

Apparently, both agreed that the play was still alive when the ball was fumbled. As both seemed to be in proper position to make a call (from opposite directions) their confirming each other's perspective seems like excellent and appropriate mechanics.

I agree that the two of them getting together to discuss what they saw was excellent and looked good as officials.

My question, since I am not a football official, is what would happen if the two of them had disagreed? Since there was no whistle to stop the play, what if the Wing came in and said that he had forward progress stopped at the 2, and the Referee said, no, I've got a safety? Do you just discuss it and come to a decision? It seems like this would happen more often in football with two or more officials looking at the same play from different angles.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Andy

I agree that the two of them getting together to discuss what they saw was excellent and looked good as officials.

My question, since I am not a football official, is what would happen if the two of them had disagreed? Since there was no whistle to stop the play, what if the Wing came in and said that he had forward progress stopped at the 2, and the Referee said, no, I've got a safety? Do you just discuss it and come to a decision? It seems like this would happen more often in football with two or more officials looking at the same play from different angles.

The wing has forward progress, the Referee does not. So who cares if they disagree, the Referee cannot rule on a play they are not in position to make. I am sure the Referee gave information to the wing as to if he eventually got away. And one thing non-football officials need to understand, the whistle means little or nothing to this play. There are plays that do not have a whistle at all, somehow everyone knows the play is over.

Peace