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-   -   Fake FG Question (https://forum.officiating.com/football/59618-fake-fg-question.html)

jaybird Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:39am
Quote:
..it is NOT etched in stone..
Maybe not, but it is typed on paper in the NFHS Officials Manual.

bisonlj Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmc (Post 699734)
I realize that things may be done differently in different parts of the country and am a firm believer in "Whatever works best for you". I agree, at the Varsity level considering the type formations regularly employed in today's game, positioning "off the field" is clearly the prominent, and appropriate, positioning.

However, it is NOT etched in stone and ALL officials, "that know what the hell they're doing" are usually cognizant and willing to adjust to the game, and within that game, to the situation they are confronted with, at least in my experience. If you haven't learned "one size NEVER fits ALL", you eventually will.

I suspect, a number of officials work at multiple levels and multiple ages and sometimes what makes perfect sense when dealing with world class athletes at the Varsity level just doesn't make all that much sense when it's applied at the Pee Wee level, which is where many officials learn their trade.

"Too" close is always dangerous, but moving in,an appropriate distance, in a 4 or 5 man configuration, in the right circumstance can be a BIG help for overall crew coverage and performance. However, "Whatever works best for you" adjusted to match the level you're working at, should prevail.
You replied to a post about a varsity playoff game where Rich commented about the officials positioning themselves on the field. He wasn't talking about a pee-wee game. Those situations usually only have 2 or 3 officials so I agree it can be necessary for a wing official to pinch a little to help with action after the ball is dead.

I beileve any time you are working with 4 officials or more and at the HS level and above, start on the sidelines and stay there until the play is over if you are a wing official. It's also a good habit to get into if you are starting out working lower levels. Otherwise you could develop bad habits as you move up.

ajmc Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bisonlj (Post 699748)
I beileve any time you are working with 4 officials or more and at the HS level and above, start on the sidelines and stay there until the play is over if you are a wing official.
If adhering to your belief, every time, works for you, you are likely better off adhering to what you believe is correct. However, it may be just a tad beyond the reach of your headlights to suggest, or imply, that anyone who might disagree somewhat with your belief is "wrong".

bisonlj Fri Nov 05, 2010 01:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmc (Post 699751)
If adhering to your belief, every time, works for you, you are likely better off adhering to what you believe is correct. However, it may be just a tad beyond the reach of your headlights to suggest, or imply, that anyone who might disagree somewhat with your belief is "wrong".
That's fine. I think I'll stick with what I have been taught by excellent high school officials and those working college and NFL. You stick with what you were taught 20+ years ago.

Word count: 50
Comma count: 6

Rich Fri Nov 05, 2010 01:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bisonlj (Post 699754)
That's fine. I think I'll stick with what I have been taught by excellent high school officials and those working college and NFL. You stick with what you were taught 20+ years ago.
Kind of what I was thinking -- How to Learn Officiating by Watching ESPN Classic....

ajmc Fri Nov 05, 2010 04:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bisonlj (Post 699754)
That's fine. I think I'll stick with what I have been taught by excellent high school officials and those working college and NFL. You stick with what you were taught 20+ years ago.
No need to get snarky. If you bother to learn to broaden your perspective, you might make it to 20+ years. No matter how much you think you know, or how good you think you might be, neither rarely equates to what you actually need to learn, or how good you actually are.

MD Longhorn Fri Nov 05, 2010 04:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmc (Post 699751)
If adhering to your belief, every time, works for you, you are likely better off adhering to what you believe is correct. However, it may be just a tad beyond the reach of your headlights to suggest, or imply, that anyone who might disagree somewhat with your belief is "wrong".
It's not OUR belief ... it's the beliefs of the folks that write the manual, and those that train us and evaluate us. This is not a "do what works for you" area. Additionally, I fail to see ANY benefit to working on the field in a 4 (or more) man system. The distance gained is immaterial - your angle is far more important. I'm not understanding why you seem to think that because YOU believe it, it's accepted. It's not.

(3 man - or 2 - is a completely different animal... without an umpire wings HAVE to pinch in, or R is in for a very very long day.)

Welpe Fri Nov 05, 2010 04:39pm
Even with three man mechanics, I don't pinch in until the play is over. Too much is lost by being on the field in my opinion.

bison, you are obviously shooting moonbeams beyond your headlights, which you may, or, may, not, realize but clearly whatever works best for you, is how you should go, if you know, how to do so,maybe, you'll understand that, once you get enough, experience to become, a clock, operator.


Edit: needed a few more ,,,,,,,,,,

MD Longhorn Fri Nov 05, 2010 04:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 699778)
Even with three man mechanics, I don't pinch in until the play is over. Too much is lost by being on the field in my opinion.

bison, you are obviously shooting moonbeams beyond your headlights, which you may, or, may, not, realize but clearly whatever works best for you, is how you should go, if you know, how to do so,maybe, you'll understand that, once you get enough, experience to become, a clock, operator.


Edit: needed a few more ,,,,,,,,,,
Honestly, it depends on a lot of things. If I'm doing 8th or 9th grade with 3, I'm staying on the sideline. Saturday with 2nd graders? Absolutely. Also - if I have 2 games that day, sideline it is. 6? I'm going to cheat in more likely - not just for me but for my crew who is likely also working 6.

ajmc Fri Nov 05, 2010 05:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 699776)
I'm not understanding why you seem to think that because YOU believe it, it's accepted. It's not.
Perhaps what you have trouble understanding, is that whether or not you accept a concept, or not, is totally immaterial. If you feel more effective camped out on a sideline for EVERY situation, knock yourself out, but angle has nothing to do with anything, unless you're incapable of responding to what your confronted with.

Reffing Rev. Fri Nov 05, 2010 09:28pm
Not to stir the pot any, but Nebraska School Activities Association tells us that when ball is on opposite hash wings should be on the numbers.

So maybe when in Rome one should do as the Romans do.

Rich Sat Nov 06, 2010 09:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reffing Rev. (Post 699800)
Not to stir the pot any, but Nebraska School Activities Association tells us that when ball is on opposite hash wings should be on the numbers.

So maybe when in Rome one should do as the Romans do.
An exception that proves a rule. Likely a state run by a 40 year official who doesn't think that change is a good thing. I saw the same thing in LA in basketball where until recently they insisted on having the center official opposite the table (and I have no idea if this has changed).

I worked 2 games 3-man this season, neither by choice. Told the wings to stay off the field as usual and that I would run up and spot the football between plays -- if the play was in the side zone, that wing could choose to pinch in and spot the ball if they chose. I ran more, but it's better (IMO) than lining up R-L-U and better than having the wings compromise their field coverage just to get a football spotted.

ajmc Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 699824)
An exception that proves a rule. Likely a state run by a 40 year official who doesn't think that change is a good thing. .
This may come as a shock to you Rich, but somehow officiating football actually survived (some might even say "thrived") before you came along. Your attitude, related to 40 year officials, might have a tad more credibility if you waited to see if you actually lasted that long first.

Rich Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmc (Post 699826)
This may come as a shock to you Rich, but somehow officiating football actually survived (some might even say "thrived") before you came along. Your attitude, related to 40 year officials, might have a tad more credibility if you waited to see if you actually lasted that long first.
I've got 24 years in this racket. The difference between me and other 24 year officials is that I'm willing to embrace change that's put in place to make us better. When I started as a wing official, we worked well onto the field and tried to stay with or ahead of the play. We worried so much about getting the spot of the ball we missed a ton of stuff around the ball carrier. It's so much easier for us now to work (1) off the field and (2) slightly behind the play (and rely on cross-field mechanics rather than staying even with the football) that it's a wonder people didn't think of it before.

Good officials evolve. Those that don't or won't evolve should get out of the way. They *certainly* shouldn't be setting policy with respect to mechanics and then tell other people that's the only right way to work.

(I managed to write 2 full paragraphs and only used one comma. I'll try harder next time.)

ajmc Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 699827)
I've got 24 years in this racket. Good officials evolve. Those that don't or won't evolve should get out of the way. They *certainly* shouldn't be setting policy with respect to mechanics and then tell other people that's the only right way to work.

(I managed to write 2 full paragraphs and only used one comma. I'll try harder next time.)
I don't think there's anything remotely indicated by what I've tried to suggest that comes anyway near telling anyone, "that's the only right way to work.[/B], although I do get exactly that impression from your tone.

Officials in other areas often have tendencies to "evolve" as they decide is best for them to evolve, sometimes for good, sometimes not. Sometimes people with 20+ years evlove at a different pace than others, which sometimes is good, sometimes not.

By the way, what do commas have to to do with football?


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